moonraker

Where do I alude to survival of the Euro? My reference to the Euro was that it has caused many to re-evaluate where the EU is going and hence I contest your certainty for ever closer political and fiscal union. Currently 9 countries within the EU are not in the Euro zone. To realise your guaranteed future how will these be strong armed into accepting it?

You seem as certain that the EU cannot change for the better as you are hat the UK can obtain a favourable deal on trade outside the EU. The current problems with the Euro and the refugee crises are focusing minds, both the publics and politicians, it is these issues that provide the opportunity for change.

This, their is little public support for a European Super state in any of the 28 members. It is feasible the UK has a golden opportunity, if we remain in, to help shape and create a European Family that recognises differing cultural and political needs whilst being open and tolerant. If we leave their is no opportunity and we will be the poorer for it.

Oh dear, plenty out there, try reading it. The article Hutch refers to is from 2012, there is no link to the loan. The loan was split in 2; The vital infrastructure project, which aims to reduce congestion in and around the UK capital, benefited from a GBP 1bn EIB loan in 2009 for the project’s initial tunnel construction phase. This was complemented by a further GBP 500m loan in late 2013 to help finance a fleet of high-capacity, state-of-the-art trains – the next step in the project’s development. So the original award predates the EU regs by 3 years and the second part clearly states it was to help fund high capacity trains. Its about capacity sorry it can't be twisted into another anti EU rant.

Just checked the tunnel size was designed to accomodate proper trains not just underground models, this allows: an increase in capcity, more comfortable seating, higher sppeds and more options for roling stock. It seem Boris has once again reinvented history.

So no evidence then, just putting 2 and 2 together and making 5. Creating bigger tunnels makes real sense, the whole UK rail system is devoid of double decker trains due to our small tunnels and bridges. If we could accomodate these trains we could inrcrease capacity massively. I am sure cramped commuters would welcome this.

Any evidence for that? when first annouced the arche eurosceptic said: The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, said: "Our good friends at the EIB have provided us with a billion more reasons to proceed with the unstoppable force that is Crossrail. It is one of the largest loans ever secured for a transport project and I am especially pleased to have this backing for our drive to provide London with the facilities required to keep the capital one of the world's leading cities." Be funny if they called the laon in if we leave the EU.

Is this part of Project Fear 2!

Nothing to do with MPs I was quoting percentages of voters

Way off 86 Oh dear more Brexit lies, where did you get those figures from? UKIP and the Tories had 49.5% of the vote. If we assume that kipper are 100%, 50% of Tories, 30% of labour vote out (where did you get your labour supporter figures from? Even at 50% labour support Brexit only manages 46%), LD, SNP and Plaid are 100% for remain you will get to 40.1% for out, adding another 2 -3 % for marginal ‘nationalist parties’ 44% is a fair reflection from the GE. It is for Brexit to make a positive argument to leave, something they have singularly failed to do. I think your contention ‘people simply will not turn out in their droves to vote for "Bremain" but my god they'll vote Brexit’ is complete tripe or at best wishful thinking. If as I suspect the outcome will be very close, it will be very difficult for the ‘loosing side’ to accept it, especially if the turn out is less than 75%. It is unlikely to be a once and for all decision. Finnaly bi-elections have never been an indication of a national poll. And as for voting for the people britain elects, that would be the people voted for by only 37% of the electrate and who are oposed to a fairer (more democratic) voting system.

I had an interesting chat with my 92 year old father about the referendum. We had not really discussed it before and I was a little surprised that essentially he is completely baffled as to why anyone would want to leave. His view is there is no such thing as the good old days and that the EU has been a key contributor to a quality of life he never expected to achieve.

Watching and listening to Boris on the Andrew Marr show was revealing, I was not convinced he was convinced by Brexit.

I think your summary is very fair. For me (an over 50) the key is what is best for the long term security and success of the UK. Whilst the EU is very far from perfect and requires serious reform, increasing globalisation and polarisation leads me to believe that we will better of collaborating with our nearest neighbours and that the EU is the best mechanism for this. Having read much from both camps the degree of contradiction, scaremongering and downright lying can be weighed in almost equal measure.

While i have some sympathy with the overall sentiments of what you post I spotted a tinge of irony in this statement. If we cant get 28 european nations to agree what chance the world? We already have the UN and it has to compromise so much to get anything done.

Really, and just how are they going to do that?

Im glad your so certain that the world you desire will come to pass, I am not.

Here we go again what is the difference between a statistic and a number? These are numbers and percentages of the actual number so cars made and exported in 2015, to arrive at these “dodgy statistics” one simply counts each car as it leaves the production line and then you count each car that is transhipped to a European Destination, hope that is not to difficult. My real concern despite the out campaign, without any reliable evidence, claim all will be fine and the status quo will be maintained for the motor industry. Even when a major manufacture, inappropriately, puts out statement strongly tending toward saying leaving will cost jobs you still refute that their will be negative consequences. Europe may wish to continue trading but on their terms not ours, its that simple and no amount of wishful thinking will alter that.

Is that the Nissan that is 48% owned by the French?

So the 180,000 people employed in car manufactureing are all foreigners or something? 1,587,677 cars were made in the UK of which 1,227,881 were exported 57% of which was to the EU. If thats not a motor industry I dont know what is.

Have to agree having listened he is not very good at this stuff.

Note, wishing to remain in and being a lefty are not synonymous. I have not yet seen Rose’s evidence so will reserve judgement but your very limited quotes (not even sentences) suggest there is far more to understand than you would like us to believe.

And your point is. An independent German naval strategist postulates forming an EU Auxiliary Naval Force (note the word auxiliary), hardly news. Strategist and analysts theorise these sorts of things on a daily basis, they rarely lead to anything, hey he even decries Brussels Bureaucracy.

So far I have seen nothing to change his view.

I have never accused the leave lobby of not having reasons only that I do not accept their reasons as being suffiecient for me to support leaving. I also have grave concerns as to how much covert input the right wing of UK politics have in the various out camps, I suspect more than many would be comfortable with.

Would that be the EFTA consiting of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland, shame we dont export winter sports equipment.