moonraker

Sorry dyslexia is a pain! I was responding to a comment about the quality of argument / debate, and my experience is that the out campaign is the least informed and most based on myth rather than fact. I am very lucky to work in a business where 70 % staff have a degree that is actually required for the job they do and they have a pretty good level of education and understanding of the world, I have yet to meet one who is in the out camp. While this may appear arrogant or narrow I am only reporting my own experience.

I said less successful, we will survive but I am scared (or if you prefer fearful), I want my country to have the best possible chance of achieving the optimum outcomes for all its citizens and this has the best chance of happening within the EU. Sorry if you struggle with this concept but I assumed most readers were beyond key stage 3.

No not them us i.e. the Government of the day on behalf of the people of the United Kingdom. Siting individuals for their view in a debate that they lost as tough they had won is a strange way to make your point.

Seems consistent to me, I do not want to withdraw because: I believe the consequences are undesirable, am scared of the UK suffering and achieving less than we otherwise, would what is confusing. Your problem is you antis need it to be ultra simple as you are relying on a lot of people being stupid and not actually understanding the European Union.

Not sure its well argued at all, well ranted yes, however I agree with some of the concerns but when you look at the global picture I cannot support our withdrawal. I want to see greater accountability within the EU however the truth is that even in our own democracy (flawed as it is) there are many NGO’s who make decisions that affect all our lives this will not change if we leave the EU. There are other non- democratic international bodies who make rules that are then translated into national legislation, are we to withdraw from these as well? If we left the IMO for example we would not be able to carry out any meaningful trade on the high seas. With respect to borders, we can control them and it is up to us how we do that, not reducing the border force would be a start. Blaming Europe for the recession in isolation to other Global events is only just one up on blaming the UK Government for the world wide crash. The history of the EU and its predecessors is in the main one of unifying, developing and improving millions and millions of peoples lives, most of the arguments I hear against the EU are short termism and reactionary. I think the term loyalty has been used inappropriately and unfairly, my desire to stay in Europe is based on my view that of the 2 options it is the best for my country and I am truly scared of what will happen if we withdraw espeicilly if the kippers and their ilk gain any form of power.

And whether you actually understand how the EU works or just read the Daily Express/Mail for your facts.

If my uncle was women he would be my aunty but he isnt.

A proposed bill proves nothing, it is the operation of the bill that will prove whether Australia has really tackled the problem, We all know that the mock criminals who market themselves as Tax Accountants / Advisor will find a loop hole or two. Loop holes are nearly always the result of omission rather than commission, meaning the legislatures intent cannot be fully delivered. The UK Government has already embarked on the legislature to address this issue. So you are mistaken in you assertion.

But we didnt did we, ergo they made the correct decsion.

It was reported this morning that German companies employ 400,000 peple in the UK and that many of these jobs will be put at risk by a UK withdrawal from Europe. Is this scare mongering by the Germans, a genuine warning or part of a greater European conspiracy to totally subjugate the subjects of Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. My supplementary questions are how many other subjects earn their living through EU member states owned businesses? what proposal do the out campaign have to ensure these people can continue to earn a living and maintain their current standard of living?

Please accept this as my humblest apology for stirring your sensibilities. As most antis confuse everything European with the EU I thought it would go unnoticed but hey your to sharp for me, so to satisfy your politically correct pedantry I have unilaterally elected to use the term ‘EU’ when referring to the economic and political partnership between the 28 European of the European Union as amended by Treaty of Lisbon, 1 December 2009. I will endeavor to ensure that my future use of all other acronyms associated with current and historic European institutions are accurate in historical, political, and pedantic terms.

You still havn't understood me, I believe our sucess will be greater in than out, not that we wouldnt have suceess outside the EU.

What a load of tosh, you will be playing the patriotic card next. Why is that those against the EU always question / accuse those who are pro EU of having no faith , being unpatriotic, blah blah blah. Such simplistic accusations only illustrate the inanity of the anti argument and the detachment the anti EU rabble have from the reality of a globalised world that is sans British Empire.

Oh did the Commission President deliver the Queens Speech, thought not.. My faith in the UK and supporting our continued membership are not mutually exclusive. Whilst we may be OK without the EU I firmly believe we are better off in than out and that the EU is better with us in it.

I have great faith in the UK, and your rather naive statement about control from Brussels only demonstrates your lack of knowledge and understanding of the EU, come back whan the Commision President delivers the Queens Speech.

Not quite that simple tough, many Texans are Texans first and Americans second, there are many groups in the US who do not consider themselves Americans first. The cultural divides in the US are as broad and wide as Europe’s, Californians, Texans, Alaskans, New Englander, have very different outlooks. It works precisely because it is Federal not in spite of it. The Scots are Scots First, Europeans second and British third yet they are part of the UK and many who oppose the EU want them to stay within the UK.

I have great faith in the the UK and I did not say our prosperity is entirely linked to 'Brussels'. My point is that the claims that we can independently negotiate trade deals that are at least as beneficial as the EU is naive. My view is the opposite to your accusation, it is the anti EU position that is narrow and constrained. Lord D makes the point that the EU is not Europe, thank you I am so pleased you have cleared up my lifelong confusion have a gold star.

Those who are against the EU seem to me to be backward looking, believing that a UK on its own can have a degree of influence far in excess of our true position in the world. Whilst there are many issues with the EU it is still vital to our future. Anti Europeans can deny all they like that foreign investment won't migrate to the rest of Europe, the truth is it will, and we will all suffer.

We have got to stay in, there may be issues with the EU but they are nothing compared to what life would be like for the UK outside the EU.

"I've read Mandela." Didnt learn much from it, it would seem.

It called reconciliation, both he and Adams are symbols for the opposing protagonists and the fact that we as a society need to move on, to forgive (not forget). You need to read Nelson Mandella, his ability to forgive to move on and build something worthwhile should be an example and inspiration to all.

Dosnt say he believes in it just that he donated to what he as a private individual believes is a good cause Criminon UK a registered charity concerned with prisoner rehabilitaion. .

I agree a carbon copy of Blair is not what is required, but acceptance by the Labour inner circle that political parties exist to represent the widest possible views of the electorate not would be a good starting point. I also agree that with our current FPTP system then we we are a two party state. I am always amused when I listen to tories and labour defending the indefesable FPTP, its the one thing they agree on beacuse it ensures only they can attain power.

The Labour Party is in a very bad place. The left is fragmented, Greens, Nationalist (SNP and Plaid) the LD's all attract left of centre voters. Blair was the one leader who has been able to counter the other left of centre parties. He did this by relegating the role of the unions and offering 'middle class' voters a voice. Miliband unpicked all of this and got what he deserved at the poles. I cannot see a natural successor to Blair and therefore the left will remain fragmented, allowing the Tories to continue without an effective challenge, a depressing thought. To all you LD bashers just wait and see what you get from an unfettered tory government, you might then just appreciate the bravery of the LD’s. Clegg may have made some mistakes but history will not be as critical as the electorate have been. We now face a generation of rule by the greedy, selfish and self centred, Tories, whose right wing is full of wannabee Kippers who wont jump ship for fear of loosing power. Cameron will do well to remind his smug party that they are only supported by 25% of the electorate, hardly a resounding mandate.

To add a bit of colour to my previous post. Dad (now 92) Brother and Myself Saints fans, travelled up from Chippenham by Train with a Party 7 (Ugh) each for company. We were with two friends, one a Palarse supporter the other the father of Darren Eddy late of Leicester and Norwich. Party 7's fully drained we made our way to the Fulham Road and a Pub full of Saints Fans. On entering the ground we squeezed into a spot in the middle of the shed and awaited the spectacle to come, the arrival of Malcolm Allison resplendent in silly hat prompted some friendly banter. Before the game started the know infamous rivers of p*ss started rolling down the terraces. The game tough not a classic was great to witness, Saints in control and winning a place in the FA Cup Final. Our journey home flew by and we were soon in our village local recounting the day and adding to the truth!