hypochondriac

I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that if you want to have your fully functioning penis removed and have all the associated medical problems that will inevitably cause then you're mentally unwell. I accept that not everyone with gender dysphoria wants to do that but for the ones who do, I'd say it's tough to argue otherwise. It could be argued that even taking cross sex hormones for non medical reasons is a sign of mental illness given the horrendous side effects that many of them cause (cancer, premature aging, brittle bones, etc.) I'd say you'd almost need a different term for these people as they seem to me to be quite different from some men who just want to wear a dress for their own comfort (or indeed some individuals who are autogynophiles and presenting as a woman is a sexual fetish.) although I suspect there is some overlap between the groups. I have less of a hard time with those who accept that they will always be biologically male or female but understand that they have a disorder which means that they want to present as the opposite sex to help them to feel less distressed. I have more of an issue with some people who just want to wear a dress and get into women's spaces such as prisons or toilets and I certainly have a problem with the high number of adolescents who claim they are transgender (particularly of concern are the proportionally high numbers who are autistic.) There's been some relevant literature in social contagion and I'd say that's definitely a factor in a significant number of cases.

I've never argued that. Being a man sexually attracted to a man is in no way the same thing as feeling the need to remove your penis to relieve feelings of distress. You may view it as progress, the point I was making is that saying if the WHO say something that that is infallible and cannot be questioned is quite clearly nonsense as demonstrated by this very issue. It's as valid as someone saying that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness in 2018 and my response being that it can't be discussed because the WHO says it is so that's the end of the matter. Like I said though, even if we accept that it isn't a mental illness, it raises some questions about these other disorders and how they differ from gender dysphoria to the extent that they are considered mental illnesses and gender dysphoria isn't. Egg says there are key differences and I'd genuinely be interested in hearing what they are.

I know it's hard to do on the Internet but @eggis an intelligent chap. I think if he's honest with himself he could admit that there's some holes in logic here. I totally understand the view that says that's the position of the WHO that it changed to five years ago and that's the end of the matter but it does throw up some questions - some of which are posted above that are not easily answered if we are to accept the WHO position. I mean five years ago you could have said "the WHO says its a mental illness so end of discussion." if we accept their position now then clearly they were wrong before that. Things clearly do change so it is conceivable that they will change again in the future. The WHO aren't infallible as proven by the fact that they categorised it as a mental illness very recently.

Absolutely. Next year will be much harder with no Downes Kwp Sulemana THB And that's best case scenario where none of the others leave.

That's not the question I asked in that post. If you have gender dysphoria to such an acute degree that you believe it is only relieved by an operation to remove your penis, do you have a mental illness?

I'd be interested to hear what you believe the clear differences are.

Is there a name then for people with gender dysphoria who then push ahead with an operation to have their penis removed? Do you accept that this category of gender dysphoric people have a mental illness?

I accept that's your position but with respect that isn't answering either of the questions I posted above. On the face of it you must admit that there really is little difference between the conditions I posted above and gender dysphoria. Let's not forget that it was reclassified as not a mental illness just five years ago following intense political pressure and lobbying from groups that no longer wanted to be called mentally ill. I'd argue that if we accept that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness that we must also accept that body integrity identity disorder is similarly not a mental illness since it's essentially the same thing for those who feel the need to remove body parts.

So having gender dysphoria is only a mental illness if it affects you to the extent that you need to remove your genitals?

So having an intense desire to cut your arm off isn't a mental illness if you don't act on those feelings? What about if you have voices in your head telling you to kill someone? If you don't act on it it's not a mental illness?

So phantom limb syndrome - an overwhelming desire to adapt the body to a perceived mental illness. This disphoria sometimes culminates in individuals trying to chop of the limb they don't believe to be theirs in order to make thenselves feel better. Clearly a mental illness and these people should be saved from themselves. Body integrity identity disorder (biid) an overwhelming desire to adapt the body to a perceived mental image. This strong disphoria sometimes culminates in individuals intentionally making themselves blind to remove their distress. Clearly a mental illness and these people should be saved from themselves. Gender disphoria. An overwhelming desire to adapt your presentation to a perceived mental image. This disphoria sometimes culminates in individuals intentionally removing their genitals in order to remove their distress. Clearly not a mental illness and these people should be allowed to go ahead with gender surgeries, leading to lifelong medicalisation, necrosis, premature aging, increased risk of cancers and having to dilate with a dildo due to the wound where their penis used to be continually trying to close itself up. Make it make sense.

That's very sad to hear. I have a family friend who suffered in a similar manner though she did manage to recover. The answer is of course that it is a mental disorder. Like you say, they view themselves as fat which is at odds with reality. I'd genuinely be interested in reading a medical study that explains why that is different from someone believing they are a woman which is similarly at odds with reality. I get that some people don't actually believe they are really a man or a woman or vice versa, they just feel better presenting as the other sex so I can sort of see that argument for suggesting it's not a mental condition. Many people do though actually believe they are a man trapped in a woman's body or a woman trapped in a man's body. In that circumstance I can't see how someone can seriously argue there is any substantial difference between anorexia or something like phantom limb syndrome where someone claims to feel more comfortable with a limb chopped off.

Are anorexics mentally ill?

My sister worked for the club many years ago. Maya hit on her apparently but she wasn't interested. Apparently he was a really nice bloke unlike Charlie Austin who was a complete prick (no surprise there.)

Hold on. Since when did non binary mean not conforming to gender stereotypes? You can be a man and do what the heck you like. You can prefer ballet to football, like pink or wear high heels but you're still a man. If you looking at the staggering levels of mental illness and high suicidality in trans people then unfortunately the well adjusted ones you know are not typical of the average trans individual. There's also a marked difference between authentic transexuals and so called trans tenders who make very little or no effort but demand to be called women and enter female spaces because they have autogynaphilia and it's a sexual fetish.

They're asking me to be complicit in a lie and to continue with that deceit which in many cases can be detrimental to their mental health. 2+2 does not equal 5 and someone born with a penis is not a she.

No one has ever argued that people can't call themselves whatever they want.

You misunderstand. You can call yourself anything you like. It's forcing others to call you whatever you like that's the issue.

It was reclassified in 2019 after massive political pressure from lobby groups. The fact it impacts upon and is a mental health condition is undeniable no matter what the WHO want to claim.

Many transexuals consider it to be a mental illness that they suffer from. I agree with them because it quite clearly is.

By that logic, you'd play along with an anorexic's delusion that they are overweight because you'd respect them enough to go along with how they see themselves. Or you'd agree that someone with phantom limb syndrome should be able to cut off their legs. Having made up gender terms is a sign of underlying mental illness and what you don't do is play along with that if you have care and respect for that person. This is particularly true if it infringes on women's rights.

What about "xe" and "xir"?

It's bollocks mate. There's one definition and the fact that Labour can't articulate that makes them look ridiculous to the average voter. They are lucky that the Tories are so awful but this sort of thing certainly doesn't help them.

What the other definition of woman?

Anyone who considers themselves a they and non binary is clearly having mental health problems. If someone were anorexic, how we would treat them is most likely to give them therapy and over a period of time help them to accept themselves for who they are and learn how to live without the desire to starve themselves. We certainly wouldn't play along with their delusion and tell them how fat they were. It's infinitely kinder to understand that these people need compassion but they also need to learn to accept themselves for the man or woman that they are and not ask the world to change entirely to fit themselves into a made up category that they decided to invent five minutes ago.