hypochondriac

Why do you keep mentioning white privilege? Go and educate yourself about the highly divisive movement in America, some of the things their founders have claimed and some of the acts that supposed supporters of theirs have done. Many more than some extreme nutters as you put it. Anyway I thought the two were entirely separate things so why are you talking about them as if they are the same thing?

Are you talking about Black lives matter the organisation in America that wants to defund the police, promotes autonomous zones in America with staggering levels of murder and crime and whose founders have described themselves as Marxist? Or are you talking about the unrelated black lives matter movement that wants to do kneeling at the football?

Great contribution.

How so? The point clearly being made is that there's an unsavoury group called black lives matter in America that some other group in the UK also called black lives matter wants to say they have nothing to do with except that they use the same gestures and the same branding etc. I didn't think I had to explain it to you and my analogy is clearly exaggerated to make the point obvious but you can remove the swastika and replace it with other controversial gestures if one springs to mind. If you want people to support a supposed anti racist movement that's now part of things before the football then the obvious thing to do is to choose gestures and branding that isn't associated with a divisive organisation in America that many people have a problem with. You can shout that it has nothing to do with the 'other' black lives matter until you're blue in the face but it doesn't remove the association or the problem that many will have with it as a result. The fact that people then say that anyone booing is actually a racist is just absurd but typical of similar users of twitter who assume that everyone they disagree with is a racist.

I realise this is invoking Godwin's law but I think using an analogy makes the issue quite clear. Let's suppose I created a group with a message that everyone broadly supports like "down with paedos." I then decided to unfurl a giant swastika at every dwp demonstration and I persuaded a load of anti paedo activists to wave little dwp flags with swastikas on. I even managed to get the Premier league on board with my message and soon players were waving these little flags before every game. Before every match I set out precisely what my protest was for. When people voiced their displeasure or booed my demonstration I just assumed they were pro paedophile or didn't really care about child abuse. Some people tried to point out the negative connotations of my swastika flags but I just called them ignorant because the swastika was perfectly innocent and had just been coopted by a group that I have nothing to do with and that isn't linked to me in any way. Ignorant people just need to educate themselves about what the swastika was really about before some other groups tried to use it in a negative way. Some people even tried to suggest that I supported fascism which is just an insane leap of logic and I can't see why anyone would ever think that because I've told everyone what my group stands for multiple times. I know that there's been numerous fundraisers for "down with paedos" that wasn't me as that was a different group in America that did support fascists. I know they have the exact same name as my organisation and they wave little swastika flags as well but I still can't see why the difference isn't crystal clear to everyone. I know that loads of corporations leapt on their fundraiser and they raised millions and I heard that the person who started that fundraiser has run off with a load of the cash and even some people who wanted to support my "down with paedos" organisation donated to their cause because they thought they were backing me but I still don't understand why all these pro nonce people have a problem with what I'm doing. There's just so many football supporters who are pro paedophilia booing these poor players making a stand against paedophiles it's just disgusting.

Thanks for the contribution soggy. Judging by the reactions to my post it clearly wasn't a minority opinion.

Agreed

I love that they had to go to the legends for determination and creativity. Not much of those in the current squad!

The fact you're a bellend doesn't need substantiating with any more evidence than you've already provided.

Happy hypocrisy month everyone.

Neither Rashford nor sterling would get in my England team.

I mean he's not wrong is he.

I don't see why the likes of Burnley or Palace or even Brighton are much more of an attraction than we are. If the aim is to stay up then we could easily sign a few better than those two and maybe one of the promoted teams. Get in a decent loan signing and sign the equivalent of kwp for the left and we should be in a better place than we are now. Don't get me wrong I think we are in serious danger of relegation next year but it's silly to suggest it's hopeless at this point. There are some terrible teams down the bottom.

That's a stupid thing to say. Of course we have some clout because we are a premier league club. We have to make what pull we do have count though.

Yep. It's those people I feel most sorry for in all this. I haven't spoken to any personally about it but I have seen a couple of articles and videos about it where they state how much they hate it because it distorts reality and makes it seem like all trans people are insane.

I get why you would struggle to understand how someone disagreeing with you could be anything other than a bigot or a racist, you've been a woke idealogue for years.

No its still exactly as I described it. Racism at the football is no worse than in other walks of life that have a random cross section of the public at. Its incredibly rare to hear racist chanting or abuse at the football and anything that is heard is dealt with harshly in the vast majority of occasions. The false sense of security that anonymity provides on social media means that many many people get all sorts of vile abuse online, particularly high profile people and sadly particularly black people. Absolutely none of that suggests that football in particular has a problem with racism. Nothing has changed in that regard despite the moral panic in the media.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Seems like we agree then. You have some black voices that agree with you and I have black voices that agree with my point of view. There's no correct answer just opinions and we can't say with any certainty that one set of opinions is definitively correct. it's therefore totally valid to hold the view-as many people including black people do-that they aren't victims of a systemically racist culture, that black lives matter protests are inappropriate at the football, that these protests are divisive for race relations and have harmed race relations in this country and that performative actions against an unjust system in America have very little relevance in the UK. It's also true to say (and there's some survey data on this) that many who are very supportive of BLM protests just happens to be the same people who support Jeremy Corbyn, who have a negative perception of the UK, who can't define what a woman is and who want to end capitalism. In other words people like Ash Sarkar and Owen Jones so it's hardly surprising that movements that purport to be solely against racism are viewed with such suspicion when people like that are their biggest supporters.

How do we decide which black voices to listen to if they all think different things and are contradictory? My point has always been that we are individuals and we all think different things. Your point appears to be that black voices that disagree with your views on systemic racism or BLM are wrong and have bad takes.

Colour blindness is the best way to deal with racial discrimination clearly. I don't need some laughable article from the Atlantic to know that. I'll continue to ignore skin colour and treat people nicely or otherwise based on their personalities and how they are towards me. It's served me well so far in life.

So black people who don't agree with black lives matter and don't want demonstration of that nature at the football are wrong and guilty of bad takes? I'm not sure about that. That seems like your marginalising black opinions to me.

The education system discriminates against black people at all stages? Is that all ethnicities or just black people in general? Do white working class males face discrimination in education?

What if you're supportive of equality of opportunity and you don't want discrimination but you don't support this particular method for the myriad of reasons already mentioned? Bear in mind when answering that a number of Black people feel this way too. Are they part of the problem? Self hating black people?

Show me where I've either put words in your mouth or guessed what you're thinking.

So just to confirm, objecting to black lives matter campaigns and taking the knee at football isn't proof that you're a closet racist? Because that's the accusation of some on here.