CHAPEL END CHARLIE

This forum (can't speak for the others) hasn't changed at all - you may just have grown out of it .

Someone seems to have attached a gigantic 'Holier than thou' magnet to this thread . I have to say don't find it at all 'attractive' or persuasive in all honesty. It seems to me this forum is today exactly (let's repeat that for emphasis 'exactly') the same type of place now as it's been in the past . This is a robust , argumentative , insightful , ignorant , gossipy , funny , annoying , pointless , stimulating , obsessive , and above all opinionated place . If you really don't want to have a piece of all that anymore then the solution to your problem would appear to be remarkably easy ....... When exactly did we not argue constantly about the merits of our Chairman ? Was there ever a consensus when we all agreed about player's ? Did some unanimous opinion ever exist about the strength (or otherwise) of our squad ? Was it ever 'out of order' to discuss the managers team selection ? ..... etc etc etc . This mythical 'Golden Era' when this forum was a vastly better/different place than what it is today only exists between the ears of those who believe in this nonsense rather than any objective reality I can recognize .

In the first part of this post you criticize me for raising concerns about the strength of the squad - but then you add that you are actually quite concerned as well . As we seem to be in complete agreement on the heart of he matter I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make frankly . On the question of 'who have we missed out on' there must be quite literally 1000's of quality players available in the world game who might have strengthen our squad in theory - I could attempt to list them all but unfortunately but by the time I've finished that Herculean task I fear most would probably have retired . While we're on the subject at least one of the "deadwood" players you mention has actually gone up a division rather than down - doesn't deadwood tend to sink rather than float ?

Do the deal . If he continues to progress at the current rate then he could easily be worth 3 or 4 times that amount (if not more) in a few years time .

With all 'official' statements of this nature (whether it be from Government , big business , or just a football club) the really interesting stuff is often to be found between the lines . Stating that speculation is merely "ill informed" is just about the mildest form of denial you can possibly get away with . If the club had issued a statement with terms such as 'completely false' or 'no truth whatsoever' included in it on the other hand (as they could have) then they would have sounded rather more convincing than they did . All those who follow events at this club closely will be very well aware that there is good reason to believe that the relationship between Nicola Cortese and Alan Pardew has come under enormous strain over the last 12 months - to believe otherwise is yet another example of the 'wishful thinking' that so bedevils this forum . Unlike some on here I thank Duncan for passing on his inside information to us . Ignorance may be bliss for some but frankly I'd rather know what people are saying - even if it is just a rumour at this stage .

Very true . A chairman must either back his manager or sack his manager . A halfway house between those two options is the worst of all possible worlds .

I tend to agree Prof . At the end of the season a point dropped in August will be of exactly equal value and importance to a point dropped in May . I've given up trying to predict the result of a single football match let alone a month's worth , but once you look past what is certainly a good quality starting XI (when they're all fit that is) this squad is obviously desperately thin . Leaving the signing of the reinforcements we clearly require so late is in itself a gamble . As of now now our squad (with the exception of the Full Back position) is significantly weaker in all departments than the squad that finished last season - to claim otherwise is nothing more than wishful thinking frankly . I would remind the more complacent among us that even the improved starting XI we certainly had in the second half of last season was proven to be far from invincible - as any Brighton supporter will attest . People keep telling me there's no need to worry because EPL clubs will being unloading plenty of quality players on loan soon because of new squad size regulations and that some good'uns will surely filter down to us . That's all well and good but if you were Arsene Wenger for instance wouldn't you rather loan out your 'next big thing' to a CCC club where they might learn more playing with and against better quality players ? Who knows they may have marginally fewer lumps kicked out of them in the process . We could already have the quality reinforcements we need lined up of course - for all I know we could be signing 3 new players tomorrow - but until they actually arrive I shall continue to view the coming season with some sense of concern . We're going to win football matches for sure , but the utter walkover many on here seem to be predicting may be not quite as 'nailed on' as they think . Before the usual suspects chip in with the usual arguments can I just remind them that worrying about the state of your team not some treacherous betrayed of the club or an attack on the manager , but rather the natural state of affairs of most football fans - indeed years of bitter experience has taught me that preseason optimism very rarely outlasts the summer sun at this club . Let's hope this season is the exception to that rule .

You forgot to mention two rather good loan signings (Papa Waigo & Michail Antonio) who have also left the squad . From the above list our 3 new defenders are going to busier than a one-legged man in a ar3e kicking contest . I take it you also don't place much store in the concept of 'strength in depth' then ? I would have thought players of the caliber of Wayne Thomas or Michail Antonio for instance might just have come in handy at some point in this coming season when first XI players receive the inevitable run of injuries and suspensions that are a routine part of any clubs season . Are you or anybody else really happy with the size of the squad - I make it about 18 experienced players at the moment (including injuries) Now who's really being silly here ?

This is a valuable contribution . You see I was labouring under the impression that the actual figure's were : 15 players out 3 players in Now I know that that is all wrong I suddenly feel much more relaxed about the situation .

Oh I'm unlikely to manage a pro football club for sure , but there again I would never do something quite as dumb as stating I'd "always" select one player over another either . I'd hope I would actually take the time to give each of them a fair chance to show their current level of ability and then evaluate how they were fitting into our style of play . On the QT (hush hush) I might even consider their state of fitness and/or form as well . But why let minor details such as these interfere with your unique brand blinkered thinking eh ?

And that is why you are not the manager of a professional football club .

Oh really ? The long que of esteemed Saintsweb members lining up to tell me that the loss of Michail Antonio wasn't that important as we already had a better player in Jason Puncheon must just have been a 'Bobby Ewing' moment then .

What !!! But I was reliably informed by forum experts that he's not really very good ? (CEC retires to his smoking room in a state of considerable confusement)

I'm starting to get fed up will people continuity asking for 'evidence' they very well know we're unlikely to ever receive . This world is a imperfect place unfortunately and we can only form opinions based on what we do know - not on what we don't . If you don't want to ever express a view with these acknowledged limitations in mind then a internet discussion forum is probably not the place for you . To answer your points in detail : 1 - As far as I'm aware no one disputes that Illingsworth did apply for a ST renewal and this has been (in effect) rejected - I ask again 'how often does that happen ? 2 - If some simple administrative error is the explanation then David Luker & his staff would have easily sorted it long ago . 3 - At no time have I ever said that those who think this is coincidental with NI's public criticism of club policy are 'liars'. If someone said they were being incredibly naive however .... 4 - Illingsworth has stated he has received no communication from the club to explain this situation - unless & until it's shown he's lying I'm taking that as true . 5 - The silence from the club regarding this matter in itself speaks volumes . 6 - Denying any fan a season ticket (even if he can obtain matchday tickets) is certainly a punitive measure as he would have to pay considerably more over the course of a season . 7 - You may find this a 'non story' (in which case you should stop posting on it) but I and many others it would seem disagree . 8 - If you really think it's acceptable a fan should be 'punished' merely for expressing a differing opinion to the official club view then again I really must beg to differ . If this were a court case and the defendant refused to offer any explanation of his actions or evidence in his own defence then the jury would feel entitled to draw their own conclusions from that silence . So until I do hear some kind of explanation from the club regarding this matter (which I doubt we ever will) then I shall continue to feel entitled to form by own opinion on what is really going on here . And that I'm sure you'll be glad to hear really has to be my final word on this subject .

http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/sport/Forest-keeper-Smith-placed-transfer-list/article-2476178-detail/article.html

Yes . Acting on divine inspiration Hypochondriac and myself have secretly fabricated this whole sorry business in an attempt to overthrow Nicola Cortese (we see him as Satan's little helper) and seize control of the club . We intended to install Nick Illingsworth as Chairman and impose a strict puritanical regime on the club which would have entailed a complete ban on Sunday football and the abolition of concourse beer sells . If it wasn't for your acute observational skills and giant intellect we would have gotten away with our dastardly plot . Damn you pesky kids !!!!!!!!

"In this universe there are no coincidences and there are no accidents . Nothing happens unless someone wills it to happen" . William S. Burroughs

I don't want to labour the point (too late I hear you say !) but most of the players released did actually contribute quite regularly last season (Perry , Antonio, Ostemebor, Papa Waigo, Thomas, etc) and we only signed 3 defenders to replace them so far - at least one of which is already injured . Looking at it objectively the squad just has to be weaker at this time when compared to last May . I count our squad has around 18 senior pros now - not good with a long season ahead . There is still time to correct this problem of course , and I hope and believe the club are working on exactly that as we speak almost .

No , it really isn't You and everyone else on here very well know that we've released a lot more that we've signed .

I don't 'know it - I (strongly) suspect it . Please don't tell be you have never engaged in speculation or formed an opinion on only the evidence you actually have available .

I can only form an opinion on what we do know . What we do know is that a fan has had his ST renewal rejected (how often does that happen?) a matter of days after publicly criticizing an aspect of club policy . Its an interesting question whether these two facts may just be connected in some way . Other interesting questions include 'is the Pope catholic & do bears sh1t in the woods ?

Is he really ? As many on here seem utterly convinced that Nick Illingsworth is forever claiming to publicly represent the views of 'all' Saints fans I strongly suspect he would be made to feel very unwelcome . If any of the multitude who have expressed that view would kindly produced the evidence to support this assertion (we seem to have suddenly developed a fanatical level of interest in evidential certainty in this thread) then I for one would be interested to see it . Meanwhile as we wait for the actual evidence of Nick Illingsworth appalling behavior to be produced I shall continue to suspect that a large part of the hostility directed at Illingsworth on here is based on little more than pure jealousy .

Wes I don't want to argue with you because I agree with almost everything you post - but not on this matter . The logic of this argument implys we can seldom (if ever) venture an opinion about anything on here as there is only one important 'fact' in the world of football - the league table - all else is speculation . If we can't express what we think based on the evidence we do have and employing our best judgment (without necessarily having some legalistic standard of proof behind us) then what is there left to say about anything exactly ? I've served on two juries in my time , evidence is always inconclusive to some extent , that's the reality of the world . The entire purpose of this forum is to freely debate SFC issues afterall - it is not - and can never be - a law court . What I said is what I believe to be true - not more , no less .

This . I've never seen this forum so (apparently) concerned about obtaining a standard of evidence you'd require for a court case before some of you are prepared to risk an opinion . Most of you have been following this club quite long enough to have developed a feel for what's really going on behind the scenes at SFC - use your judgment . The 'we don't know all the facts' defence of what is clearly an indefensible attack on all our freedom of speech seems a tad (too) convenient as we are highly unlikely to ever hear a full verbatim account from both sides of this matter . So until CSI Southampton uncovers all the hidden case papers and tape recordings you will just have to use your judgment . It could just be a bizarre coincidence that Illingsworth has had his ST renewal rejected a matter of days after he criticized the club in the press - I don't believe it . It could just be an administrative error in the ticket office & a new ST is in the post to Illingsworth as we speak - I don't believe it . It could be that Nicola Cortese is a true democrat and he welcomes the freedom of the press and open debate about the way he's running the club - I don't believe it . I don't believe any of these things , what is more I don't really believe many of you do either in your heart of hearts . I do believe that what we're seeing here from so many of you is a naive at best -disingenuous at worst- argument that is being employed primarily in an attempt to avoid confronting the brutal reality that our Chairman may not be quite the wonderful Human Being we were all hoping for after the demise of his detested predecessor . Unfortunately it would seem that Mr Cortese has 'feet of clay' afterall - just like the rest of us .

I don't know about you but in the unlikely event of a reporter asking me my opinion about a SFC matter then I'd give him a honest answer - however 'off message' that may or may not be . If you are saying Illingsworth should have refused to give his honest opinion (he does represent a fan group) or merely parroted the official view (on a controversial issue that many cared deeply about) then I can only say I can hardly disagree more .