david in sweden

This really is down to semantics. Quite often words take on another meaning with different generations. (A simple modern example is the word Gay), However, it should be remembered that the Bible wasn't written in English, but in two other languages Aramaic (OT) and Greek (NT) then later translated into Latin until we have the King James version (early 1600's) . Genesis wasn't written as scientific work, but a spiritual one - and Moses certainly wasn't a scientist (though it describes Creation in some real terms). Believers / non-believers alike are equally obsessed with the Creation/Creator and the 6 days mentioned. The emphasis being on the word " day "(which we regard as a period of 24 hours). Aramaic, (like English) had words that were used in several situations. Later, in different texts, it quotes " a day to the Lord is as a thousand years " and in the " Noah's day " (so that the 24hr. time concept obviously isn't used in the same way). " 6 days " might easily be translated as 6 ..million / billion years - if scientists want to claim that much, but ironically Moses " order " of the Creation is fairly clear. How did he manage that ? Other uses of " day " indicate that in is translated as " a period of time..or " an era, or an age ". If you care to re-read the first chapter of Genesis, and think of the " day " as an era, or period of time, then few scientists would argue against the order of Creation, the " Creation " of the Earth, the parting of the continents, the growth of vegetation, animal life ..etc, before the advent of an " intelligent " creature we call ...MAN. (Adam) if you call him such. Rather as our earlier discussions about the " eye of the needle ", it means different things to different generations. I can recall (as a very young boy) travelling to IOW, expecting to see some sort of strange sewing box ....while travelling down to see ...." The Needles ".

A good question Sussex, I was in on an early reply to a question about Marcus Liebherr (who is a believing Christian, apparantly ) when CHAPEL questioned whether ML was happy to spend millions on Prem-League players salaries (when we return to Prem, that is )....when his personal BILLIONS could be better spent on relieving Third World poverty. ..except we don't know if he does so already in some form, or other. Since then ...the thread has taken on a life of it's own, and I don't think it's going away....at least I hope not because I for one am enjoying it. You're right that the football element has disappeared from this one, but there are dozens of other topics you can look at if it bothers you. Just ignore this one. I often ignore other threads I have no interest in.

Don't say that ..I've been following Saints blindly got the last 50 years !!!! " organised religion "... another phrase I hate does lead to extremism in many cases but these are all products of cultural influences. You named the Pope, and although he heads the largest Christian denomination (without the Catholic Church christiainity would never have got through the Dark Ages,) but Martin Luther read the same Bible but still denounced some practices in the RC church. Subsequent " movements " laid special emphasis on some certain lifestyles; The Quakers, The Methodist church, the Baptists, Salvation Army, and Pentecostal movements all have the same basic beliefs. Many Christian figures in history were led to particular tasks; thousands of missionaries during the last 150 years went to all continents around the world carrying the Gospel message. Evangelists like the wesley Brothers, William Booth and D.L. Moody, Billy Graham, and Martin Luther King made an incredible impact on the lives of millions and women like Mother Theresa gave up their whole lives in service of the Christian faith. It doesn't mean that we are all expected do the same, but God can inspire people to do both great and small works. Many Christians would say that they try hard and fail miserably, but still they feel the strength of God supporting them. Those who succeed have a vision of what they should do and often make great personal sacrifice - as Jesus did.

those Camels are only likely to get you there quicker !

I'm back again on this one..and you have some good points, but..as I see it , The " needle " might have been fairly normal in cities, (though there were very few of those in OT times). People of the time would have been familiar with the concept of an overladen camel passing through the "eye " of the needle, and thus needing to pay an extra toll to the gatekeeeper. Therefore, Jesus' analogy of passing through the " eye " unhindered must surely have been a familiar concept to them. Obviously, people in later civilisations were more familiar with a needle being used for sewing thread, so the whole idea of a huge camel passing through that " eye " would have been as ridiculous as it sounds. We know Jesus spoke in parables, but there would have been little point in him talking to people in riddles, when his very idea was to impress people with good examples.

..sadly the story our many of our Academy lads. great at junior level, but don't make the transition to the first team.

it's not maths, Robbie ...it's statistics, lots more fun !

...famous last words, but I agree it does seem unlikley!

I would follow the Plan B used by many managers and play teams according to the quality of opposition, and home or away. Skilful ball-players, (as yr. example ) at home on a good pitch playing open football...and Jahdi, Wotton and Co. for tougher away matches played on some of L1's ploughed fields.

Good that we can still teach our "colonial cousins " something about history. However, it may well be that the " denim " that they had, was indeed imported from India, (or anywhere else in the Far East) who seem to produce most of the vastly over-priced jeans that people wear today...and not necessarily from France. As you correctly pointed out.." denim " was a product from Nimes in France, and known as " cord de' nimes ". As (some) historians will have it first marketed by a man named called ...Levi Strauss, a tent maker in the California Gold Rush of 1849 -on..who found the material was better suited to making harder-wearing trousers for the prospecters who spent most of their days on their knees panning for gold. (info.only from memory - no source) However, I am fairly sure that Nimes produces very little " denim" nowadays despite the fact that the name still persists.

Well of course, we shouldn't discriminate against players on account of stature. (I recall some who criticised us for signing Peter Crouch, for opposite reasons, of course) We have a very poor history of utilising players of this build, including releasing juniors like; Dennis Wise AND Kevin Phillips (back in the 1980's ).......(mmm...wonder what happened to them ?) Regardless of shoe size, or length of shirt tail, we should give Cox a chance and hope that ..IF Simon Gillett goes permanent at Doncaster... he doesn't move on and end up playing Prem.League with some team or other in 3-4 years time.

I have to go along with that comment, Landford. I really get angry at " information " sources - in mags. and TV / media outlets that proclaim ..." ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT ...." when in fact what they mean is ..." *** here are some facts that you might remember after your 20 second span of concentration is past...and you're no longer interested in listening to lots more boring facts." *** No insult intended to anyone in particular...but why do you think politicians and speech-writers use 20 second long " sound bites " ?

maybe like Peter Pan ..who counts birthdays ?.

I think (?) there may have been a thead on him before...in August ????... revolving around the fact that he was " small of stature " (as Shakespeare may have written)... but quite nippy on the ball. Still, AP & Co. haven't done badly up until now with signings - so why not ?

As some people are still on the " false history " subject.... Of course, would-be historians, like to add their own two pennyworth to the tale, and if you choose to believe that successive generations, or even Steven Fry ...have something different to offer you are at liberty to listen to / believe them. As someone with more than a passing interest in history, I try to remain open-minded...but the issue of the " needle ´gate " really is a drop in the ocean, However, I haven't read anyone who claims that the original " gate " still exists, especially as the Jerusalem of Jesus time was destroyed and almost burnt to the ground some 50 years later during a Jewish revolt against the occupying Roman army. This, of course, was not the first time,that Jerusalem had been destoyed by invaders). A fact that is well-documented in Roman and Jewish (non-christian) history of the time. It was many centuries later until the present Jerusalem took shape in its present form, and documentation exists showing that the original walls when the city was much larger than at present. There is nothing to suggest that the city was re-built in exactly the same way it was before. Jerusalem is built on a high hill, and in parts still resembles an archeological dig (as I saw myself when visiting many years ago) and evidence of the remains of previous civilisations are still being discovered today. A little closer to home...Southampton's history dates back (at least) to Roman Times when the first invaders built Clausentum (later in the area of Bitterne Manor) and a lot happened after that. My grandmother (died 1961 aged 90) told me graphic stories of life in So'ton before the First World War but almost all of that 2000 year history was destroyed by the Luftwaffe in 1940. MY late uncle (a former air raid warden in WW2 ) told equally horrific stories of the city centre in flames, not the mention the bombing of the various Spitfire factories around the town. Scarcely anything one might credit today when you look at the modern bulildings around today. My point is that though difficult it may be (for some)to believe Southampton no longer looks as it did when the Mayflower set sail in 1620. In fact a hotel presently stands very close to the area where the boat would have been moored when the entire area of the present docks was below water level. There is a monument to commemorate this (as you probably know). Neither Jerusalem, or Southampton has been re-built to the original plan, and all of Steven Fry's eloquence doesn't convince me that he knows for certain what the first century Jersusalem looked like any more than anyone else - whether they are a believer - or not. My personal faith in God or in the person of Jesus does not hang on the likely existence of a stone gate.

Nah, he's just happy for the children in the team !!

An explanation I heard was that the gate resembled a very large (sewing) needle, and was set in the wall near the main gate that people used, but animals passed through the " eye of the needle " (which most practically meant you didn't have to walk through camel dung, either.) The " needle " was also a sort of " toll gate " that camels had to climb through to get into the city, and any crafty merchant trying to enter the city with an " overloaded " camel was forced to pay an extra tariff. An ordinary person who led his animal throught he gate without hindrance - did so without having to pay the "congestion charge". I have also read about the blocked-up gate. In fact several of the gates around the city have either been bricked up for security, or in the case of the gate opposite the Garden of Gethsemne, because there is a cementary right outside the bricked-up gate and no-one can desecrate it. (I've actually seen it, as I visited many years ago. FACT!

This is surely a slip of the tongue and not so accurate. I've often heard people say .." wait a second.." for something that will take 5 mins. or more..! Perhaps what he means is ; I'll take the time I want before deciding, and a maybe a bit of ..." don't ask me for a quote ..TODAY "

Oooh, that must be some kind of Freudian slip, Duncan ...either that or you're not very good on anatomy !

Historians do incredible things to change people's views of history. For many years after the WW2 , Japanese schoolchildren were taught that Japan actually won the war..(and who could doubt them when one can see their very modern lifestylesthey enjoy nowadays) A survey amongst German College students some years ago showed that over 50% of them ...had never heard mention of the name..Adolf Hitler (!) Their are a number of "over-publicised" authors who claim that the Holocaust never occured, and even some proponents of that in the Catholic church.(!) I have seen interviews with soldiers who helped " liberate " the concentration camps, and met another who was in Germany after VE Day. I have no doubts. As centuries go by, some historians who want to make a name for themselves continue to find new " evidence " about someone/something else. I've no doubt some over-enthusiastic Christian historians may have been guilty of this, but many atheists have done far more to try and disprove what many belivers know- if you have a personal relationship with God, then a few possible inaccuracies don't change your faith, and there are many believers in countries who are still forbidden to read the Bible. As for M. Liebherr..I'm sure the billions he's made in his business life must dwarf the " small sums" he's spent in buying SFC. If the club is running on business-like lines, with running costs / salaries being covered by income, then he's not spending much more than his original purchase price. When we move up the Leagues the costs will rise accordingly. If Prem. clubs are stupid enough to pay 50-100K / week to players, don't blame the players but the clubs chairman for OK-ing such deals.

You're point is well taken, but some Christian believers I am acquainted with hate the word " religious " which has quite another meaning, nor (as someone else pointed out) do they necessarily think of themselves as special or better than anyone else, and they cetainly don't brag about what they may donate their charitable gifts to either. I don't know about RL 's beliefs, or which bible he quotes from, but one should tread carefully, (if using it to hit someone else in the head). As I understand it, M.Liebherr was impressed by the fact that SFC was started as a club run by the local church (St.Mary's) I won't question his motives or actions, but I'm glad he didn't grow up an atheist.

You're not in my " bad books " but maybe your choice of words was a bit ambiguous. Christian belief is based on the teachings of Jesus (who of course was born a Jew) and his disciples. Some of whom were non-believers before they met him. He didn't preach that money was evil or that possessing it was wrong. (someone else corrected the often mis-quoted verse ..The LOVE of money is the root of all evil). Jesus does teach that people who have great wealth have a responsibility to use it well and properly. The instruction (to the weathy " yuppie " in the text ) was that he would be happier without the worrying responsibility of great wealth. Many of the greatest social reformers of the past have been devout believers; Chas.Dickens, Doctor Barnardo, et al ...your point about ML and his wealth is (to me) ...at the time he turned up..he was the " answer to someone's prayer " ....and thankfully we still have a football club, and the (for him) minimal outlay of £15 mill. (or whatever) was probably coffee-money for a man who is used to handling BILLIONS! (One of his cranes probabaly cost more than he paid for SFC) but without him - we might conceivably be a city.. without a football league club ! It wasn't meant to be a personal attack so don't take it as such. (pm me if you want to -as this thread is going to be closed if it doesn't get back to SFC soon (me thinks).

well. if you really want to look.you can find lots, but amongst the best known are; Flavius Josephus - a jewish-Roman philosopher who lived in the period after Jesus' time and wrote in particular about Jesus and his work and his crucifixtion. His writings were translated long ago and are available .. (if you're interested try Google ..or something similar) The Jewish teachers of the time (and since) who readily admitted he lived and was crucified by the Romans (at their demand), but denounced the idea that he was the Son of God. The Koran (if you've heard of that) teaches that Jesus lived and was a great prophet - but also deny that he was the son of God. (I won't go on... if case you think I'm out of order, but do a little research yourself ...and mail me if you want to.) regards David

Andrew Surman... - although, on his own admission he's always been a Saints fan at heart, Drew was born in South Africa where his parents (who were both Sotonians) had emigrated. They later returned to the UK when he was about 10, and he later joined Saints juniors, and was at one time (pre-Theo Walcott) ...the youngest ever player to turn out for the Reserve side. As he only played U-21 for England, it is possible (though most unlikely) that both countries are open to offer him a full international cap.However, I can imagine that he probably has a UK passport anyway (?) There are many instances of players who played Youth/U21 internationals for one country, but got full caps from another. Nigel Quashie was one example, I believe. He played U21 for England, but never got a full cap, but later " discovered " a Scottish grandmother and got his international caps from north of the border.