david in sweden

pretty warped sense of humour, you guys. A lot of people including myself got a real wave of nostalgia thinking about some of our REAL Old Codgers who've been supporting the club for a very long time. Have a good laugh at us all when you have a pint together, but personally I think you belong in the same boat with Thierry Henry.

Your right as far as I can see. John Arnold was one of those " magical" left wingers and although he moved onto Fulham in 1933, he did score 46 goals in only 106 startsfor Saints (1928-33) - pretty good for any striker - let alone a winger. The "footballing cricketers" (cricket was regarded as the more "gentleman-ly sport" ) were numerous in this period - but very few ever reached the level good enough to be considered to play for their country in BOTH sports. JA was best-known as Hampshire's opening bat from 1929 ..until 1950 (aged 43) and to think that he lost 6 years of play because of the War - fantastic achievement.

This is just the type of incident that makes my blood boil. FIFA hide behind their rule book and support referees at all costs, and so much for the luck of the Irish ! There can't be much worse that being cheated out of the World Cup place by inadequate officials and the lack of the best technology in the world. I would like to hear Platini's comments on this game?. Should FIFA discipline Henry as they did Zidane.? If he does nothing (as I suspect) why are we wasting all this time playing matches. Let the stadium fill upwith fans and have the two captains stand in the circle with the ref. and toss a coin..best of 5... and then we don't have to bother with penalties either. A TOTAL DISGRACE, FIFA ..and M.Platini ought to resign if he condones this. !

In the original post, it states that " he was too short to see and sat on his Dad's shoulders " so that would suggest perhaps under 6 ..? Old Codger also suggests that they missed a train - maybe there were weather / travel problems which might have kept the attendance down. As for the gate; 2,000...strange that it is such an precise number! Other games v. Burnley around that period got 7,000 and 10,000 when both teams were in the lower part of the table. I always thought such figures left a lot to be desired when it came to declaring the " exact " size of the gate. Quite often it was down to someone's "rough idea" and, of course there were a number of scams with the gatekeepers pocketing some of the take (I'd seen that at The DELL many years ago!)

perhaps we will...! Rooney is a striker - I think Thatcher purports to be a defender of some ilk ? maybe we will sign both !

I've been arguing this for years..and this isn't just a league game with three points at stake either. The Irish were robbed and France will go to the World Cup. I put this in the same category as Maradona's handball v. England!

What a great story, Duncan. Looking back at an earlier Saints publication" A complete history of .. " The facts are correct: january 2 1932 we did indeed win 3-1 Crowd 2000 (!) Scorers: Sillet 2, Arnold. line up 2-3-5 (as was in those days.)¨ Scriven in goal, Adams.W - Keeping Shelley - Bradford - Luckett O'Grady -Jepson - Sillett.C - Wilson - Arnold A few names there that my late father used to quote; Scriven, Keeping, Luckett and Arnold.

Failed a medical ..? that sounds ominous !!! ..so did Charlie George and Agustin Delgado ..but we still signed them all the same and it cost us a fortune. If players need to get fit they should do it on their own time before signing..as did Connolly.

Clean sheets aren't really SO important - except to a goalie's pride. There's been some exciting football of late (ex.Brighton game of course) and prior to that we've scored 22 in 8 league and Cup games (conceded 11), and about a dozen different scorers... so far this season. The recent drop in form has coincided with the absence of ...Mr. Wotton (but that's another defensive arguement.) We really can't expect to score lots of goals without conceding some along the way. I am old enough to remember the high scoring sides in the 1960's. MY favourite season was 1963-64 ..no we din't win promotion but scored 100 league goals in 42 games. There were only 6 clean sheets all season but we scored ..70 at home. Average more than 3 Saints goals per game! In most cases a defence oriented-team might score one goal.. and hold out for the points. Even in the heady days of the 1980's when we had Englands keeper Peter Shilton, it was a good season if we had a dozen or more such games. Of course it's nice to have a watertight defence, but at the end of the season ..a lot of goals may make the difference for a play-off place and the more you score - the better it will be. Clean sheets are a bonus - but don't give extra points. I'm sure that AP wants to improve the squad everywhere, but speaking personally - I don't care as long as we score one more than the opposition.

Good post Revolution Saint. Legends certainly should have a good / longer history with the club. min. 3-4 seasons and good peformances, goalscoring etc, and 100/150 apps. Less than a dozen players have made over 400 apps. in the clubs history but if that doesn't qualify them for legend status - nothing does. "Cult heros" are fan favourites (for various reasons). Locally born Frannie Benali (though a 100% player) wouldn't rate in the top 5 of the clubs BEST left backs. Ekelund was a real success ..for half-a-season.. and many were sorry to see him go .. but legend - not really. Someone like Marian Pahars..it's maybe borderline.. but his goals at the end of his first season certainly kept us up that season. It's all down to the individuals own favourites. BUT for sheer class I will nominate a few players who played the majority of their games with OTHER clubs... but still made tremendous impact for Saints. Jimmy Gabriel,Chris Nicholl, Boyer, MacDougall, Golac, Peter Shilton, Alan Ball, Jimmy Case. (I'll stop there....) To be fair it's impossible for newer fans who'd never seen them play to make comparisons, but we have had some very good players in every generation.

I think this is a good analysis. Of course L1 2009 -can't be compared with L. Mac Div.1 side in the late 70's but the principle is the same. The likes of Jaidi and Connolly are experienced internationals with Prem. background. Their big-time careers are over but at this level they are a great asset. Later replies on this thread also name Warren Feeney and Ben Thatcher are likely loans /signings in January. Whether such signings will be enough for a play-off spot or not we'll see in April, but it certainly gives a good basis for team building in the future. One thing that Lawrie Mac suceeded with was the integration of younger players at a steady rate; Steve Williams, Nick Holmes, Stokes, Waldron, Moran, G.Baker and the Wallaces. They all succeeded when surrounded by top players. However, it's a mistake throwing in too many inexperienced youngsters all at once.(ala Double Dutch experiment). At the moment, we have four who have " qualified in "; Lallana, James, Schneiderlin, Mills (plus loan Antonio) is really about the limit. Others new players who have 100 /150 + games under their belt are more routine types and have learnt a lot. Promotion or not; these "new" stars will be great encouragement for our promising juniors.

...AND hopefully, we'll use the skill properly this time. Rory Delap got stick from fans for years because Saints " never scored " from his throw-ins, but when he moved to Stoke - he took the style same throw-ins that led to lots of goals and he became the terror of Prem. defences last season !

good post - I agree 100%

This was really a foregone conclusion - wasn't it ? At the start of the season, KD was "the senior pro " and one of the oldest on the staff, too. and put the club first when offered Prem football at West Ham. He is (apparantly) a good leader-type and with so many young / new players it was the right move at that time. (BUT goalkeeping captains are rarely the "ideal choice" for obvious reasons. OK Shilton did for England during his time with us, but at international level players have more experience and don't need the same encouragement.) The capt.(with armband) is meant to be the one to " speak with the ref." - not so easy with a disputed free-kick on the edge of the box - the goalie needs time to line up the wall -and not argue the toss with the ref. 20 yards away. As prev. discussed on an earlier " 5 captains thread " we have several other players with captain .experience; Hammond, Wotton, Thomas and Murty have all had the task with former clubs. Despite recent "off-form" games, Hammond would be most peoples choice I'm sure; IMHO Thomas and Wotton are a bit too " agressive " at times. Hammond seems to be a bit more level-headed, sadly Murty (also a good leader type has been out for a long time, but could equally well do DTJFU.) I really don't think this requires Sun Sport headline treatment, it's a natural thing to have a midfielder/ defender for the job and I'd go for Hammond, or a fully-fit Murty. END OF RANT !

If you use the " Skate " example, then you must include NORMAN DEAN. Several years a good reserve player, but later played half a season in the promotion side 1965-66 however, that included a hat-trick at Fratton Park. Norman is the only Saints player ever to score a hat-trick at Fratton Park. THIS IS A RECORD... Tough on Norman though, when we went up to Div.1 he lost his place to a new signing called RON DAVIES ! (the rest ..as they say ..is history)

I'm with you totally, Toomer. There is no disgrace for any bench player who comes on late in the game and scores! Connolly is obviously struggling to get totally match fit after so long a lay-off and no pre-season. For many fans there's something exciting about a player coming on and getting goals. The "super-sub" expression was (as I recall) first applied to David Fairclough (Liverpool lad in the 60's) and later to Trevor Francis - who started as a 16 year old striker). Providing he's still injury free, we may have to wait till Easter for Connolly to really get in form - we might well need it then. Meantime, don't force him to play 90 mins. every game.

Yes, Wednesdays side was the best selection (given the above) and playing Bart gave EVERYONE concerned a good chance to see him play, and must have boosted his confidence sky high. With so many Academy lads out on loan it's a good chance for those left " in-between " to get an airing.... (Holmes, Mills, Gobern, Paterson,). Someone has to make some serious decisions about Trotman, Mellis and Antonio - but I would rotate the bench with the likes of Connolly and Wotton and take each game as it comes. Saving a game from 0-2 down is an uphill task against any side - we need fresh legs who can come on and change games when needed.

You're right of course Phil. However,with Murty's return on the horizon surely James would be better in midfield. Schneiderlin is a bit of a luxury in L1. (although I do enjoy his skill ) he is the sort of class midfielder who puts the icing on the cake for a top side - and (we 'aint there yet !). At this level you have to battle and grind out results all the time.

I'd say this was one of the factors, but we have several players capable of rotating the 1 man up front. Connolly is a goal poacher, but so far has done best with his 20 minute cameo appearances coming in against tiring defenders and scoring late on. Lallana must learn how to take some stick (he won a good penalty yesterday -as long as he doesn't develop a liking for diving instead) and could easily rotate the front role with Lambert during the game depending on the strengths /weaknesses of the opposition. A temporary change of tactics in mid-stream often works well, example: a tricky winger changing wings or having a front man drop back deeper and running with the ball (ala Channon). Certainly yesterdays game gave AP food for thought but expect to see some personal changes in midfield and reverting to 4-5-1 on Saturday.

TRUE, but mostly players from the top six clubs - the rest of the Prem. league get a rest, too and those 6 have reserve sides good enough to survive in the lower end of the Prem.

at the risk of incurring wrath from many contributors, I venture to offer as my defence - statistics about appearances. Since the home loss v. Bris. Rovers the run of 6 undefeated games included one player who has since been dropped - I refer to Wotton. ( I hear many angry voices) :mad: His place in a re-vamped line-up has gone to Antonio,(who I have to say looks quite impressive), However, the fact remains that there was a sad lack of " bite " in midfield in the Brighton game and it cost us 3 points. If you are going to allow TWO wide players Lallana AND Antonio) to have free range then it weakens us in the middle and such players sadly do not take easily to a defensive role when we are under pressure. Older players have learned this skill but young " stars " only want togo forward and attack. Judging by yesterdays performance I have to say that Schneiderlin (a very skilful player to be sure) looked surplus to requirements and didn't have such good positional play. I wrote some weeks ago reminding someone that we do not look like a team likely to keep many clean sheets but as long as we got ONE goal more than the opposition - we get the points - yesterday it didn't happen! a fact surely noted by Wotton and AP from the bench. Next step Mr. Pardew ?

I think all those categories are valid choices, but of course any " potential legend " won't fit into all these categories. Perhaps two or three. Ekelund for example was only with us for about half a season and played only 17 games ! (He did put in some great performances) but there are lots of players who have had a good season / half season and did little more. (Chris Baird, Crouch and Camara who come to mind!) Beattie had some good seasons (and one VERY good) but I would have been more impressed had he stayed with Saints - as did MLT..who is definitely a legend ! I'm big on loyalty. However, for those of us a bit longer in the tooth, there are some glowing omissions in your list of examples. ANY player who has put in 10 years and /or 400 apps. has to be categorised to start with ..so don't forget Nick Holmes the only (?) locally born player ever to captain a Saints side (on a regular basis anyway.) Holmes and the 60's star Jimmy Gabriel were good examples of players who could play almost anywhere and turn in a good performance. While most of those examples you gave were good examples it has to depend on your generation, but NO-ONE who saw a strike force with Paine, Channon, Davies and Sydenham has ever seen a better front-line in Saints colours. Yes... there have been many "fans favourites" and colourful characters who were popular figures...but IMHO " legend " is a special tribute which should be spared for "the few" .

A Cup is the Cup. You don't drop three points if you lose. A perfect opportunity to give Bart a game. What if it were a Wembley final and we HAD to play him ? AP had the perfect opportunity to see Bart in action v. one of this leagues top sides. IF anything were to happen to KD, he'd have to decide on another keeper immediately - so for Saints it was a win-win situation. If he did OK then we know he's a good prospect, had it gone the other way, he'd have one foot out of the door in January. Now we know... " the boy did alright ". We have FOUR keepers on the books + two Academy lads and somewhere we have to make the cut. Few people would deny that Kelvin Davis is an automatic first choice, and looking back over 50 years - I'd prefer one keeper who is regular and on form, rather than using 3 or 4 every season 'cos no-one is consistant. Hard luck on the guy who sits on the bench every week but, just since the 76 Cup Final we've had ; Wells, Gennoe, Katalinic, some fellow called ..Shilton ?..who was an automatic choice for FIVE years! then came Burridge...and still Tim Flowers was on the bench...then he had FOUR years before move to Blackburn, England and greater glory. Grobbelaar, Beasant, Taylor; then Paul Jones.. for FIVE seasons ..and then came Antti Niemi (a legend himself) in those last Prem.days.(and to think BOTH played in the same FA Cup Final ! As for those others, they all had good/bad days but few were really consistent ..or shall I add.. YOUNG. Most good keepers are older ..over 30. Those with longer memories will recall Pat Jennings (Spurs) still playing internationals at 44, and Shilton stood in a World Cup when past 40, and even later turned out in one game (for Leyton Orient in 1996) when he was 50. Bart has a long way to go, but Wednesdays game did his reputation no harm at all.