Minty

dune - are you capable of debating anything without resorting to generalisations and opinions gleaned from other sources? Anyway, back to AV. If the referendum vote is No, then I will respect that, but that doesn't stop me or anyone else from being allowed to champion the cause of a fairer (in my opinion) voting system. That's the beauty of living in a democracy. Bearing in mind it could be that barely 15% of the electorate might actually cast the 'winning' votes in this referendum, whatever the outcome, it's hardly going to be a landslide majority of the population either way.

64/0 off 17 so far, a steady start.

I can't see any more hatred for us on their forums than I see on ours about other teams. Their injury crisis is good for us, and by the sounds of things we should look to profit from set pieces especially. I'm a bit nervous about the game, purely because of what is at stake, but I think we should win.

Yeah, that's a ******** leaflet. Most publicity from both sides is, as I made the point earlier in the thread. Solid, independent information about the choices is needed. Just as it is in elections and all other votes. Sadly it is rarely available or forthcoming and individuals then have to decide whether to believe the hype and the media coverage, or do their own digging to find out the facts. No surprise therefore in this day and age, that most voting is done (in elections) based on relatively little information and possibly only 1 or 2 key policies, and that this referendum (IMO) will be decided primarily on the leaflets from the two camps and the media coverage. And again, as this thread has proven there is far more to the choice than most people realise.

Same here. To be honest though, I don't see what is to be gained at all by ever 'lording' it as dune alludes to, no matter who or what you are, where you are or how good you are. What does it ever achieve? Far better IMO to be happy in yourself and your own achievements and gain respect from others for *not* lording it. But I guess that will put me in the minority.

Absolutely you are, and that's not the problem I have. Healthy debate is vital. You might be right about predicting votes and about some peoples motives, but quite simply, by making the assertion that there is an 'arrogance of the left' you tar everyone with the same brush, so how can you expect people to respect your individual opinion when you don't recognise that there are plenty of individual opinions on the left? I treat others as I expect to be treated myself. That means I don't resort to such sweeping statements, because I would not want to be judged that way. I'll be honest, it was unfair of me to jump on your post, it was just the first one I read on returning to the thread, so I apologise for that. My point is valid for anyone and everyone who makes the same sweeping statements.

Some of the best stories from The Dell came about because of Jack and his devotion to duty at the car park gates. He was one of those characters that everyone knew and as Rob said, loved Saints his whole life. Maybe Him Upstairs will let you do the same job on the Pearly Gates Jack?! RIP Jack.

Wes, it's a shame that you let yourself down with sweeping statements like this. I think you put across some good points, but IMO, as soon as anyone starts making such sweeping generalisations about 'the left', 'the right', 'the Tories', 'Labour' etc, it devalues their opinion massively. Instead of replying to Verbal's points and taking him on in debate, you just end up leaving yourself open to exactly the same claims of arrogance, for believing that you can correctly state how everyone on the left might behave.

Not that it has anything to do with Saints, but according to stories in the media, it's anything BUT a moneyspinner and could actually cost the country a lot of money, directly and indirectly. Anyway, I fancy us to win.

Oh, also, we've had the lowest number of shots and shots on target against us in the whole League too, which shows our defensive prowess. Whether they go in is of course down to the quality of the shot and our goalkeeper!

There is no doubt that our resilience and composure, even when faced with 11 men behind the ball, has been excellent, and Adkins has instilled this. Panic and anxiety are no longer an issue - just a calm belief that we can and will score. That said, shurlock's point is valid to a point. There are some interesting stats that relate. The first, and most obvious is the 'fail to score' stats, which show us having failed to score in 13 of our 43 games, 30%, which is quite a lot: http://stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/D2/failtosc.html But, it's not for the lack of trying. After 41 games, our number of shots, and shots on target were the highest in the whole division (extrapolated from here: http://www.footstats.co.uk/index.cfm?task=Leagues), being 545 total shots, 312 on target. Peterborough had 530 shots, with only 271 on target, Brighton 430/220, Hudds 484/229. Once we do lead, we never lose. We're the only team in League 1 with this record, having inflicted Brighton's first 'defeat after leading' on Saturday: http://stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/D2/ptslost.html We have also won the most games having gone behind (7), which underlines the resilience and belief: http://stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/D2/ptsgain.html So, all in all, I would say the manner of our victories has been very good, but with a bit more luck/better finishing/less inspired opposing goalkeepers, we would've been champions. Room for improvement, yes, but you have to be happy with how things are going. If anything, it's that room for improvement that gives me the most optimism for next season, once Adkins has had a full pre-season to really get the team firing.

I think a few apologies are in order... lol.

Well, I'm more than happy to hear about any merits if anyone knows of any... no one can ever accuse me of not giving the opposing view a fair hearing!

Let's not get into those tired old arguments. Let's stick to the relative merits (or otherwise) of the reforms as they stand.

Sod it, take St John's ambulance along...

Here's an 'official' preview of what the meeting was about: http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/41779?

Foundation Trusts... sorry, should've made that clear. I didn't want to comment on it myself before others because it might be perceived that I had an agenda... but I think the story speaks for itself. I am rather concerned.

Eh? That just depends on the content and who you follow, and what you want to post. So it's entirely under your own control.

The News need to sack their photographer as well, that's a shocking photo.

This is from an NHS mailing list I'm on... (FT's are Foundation Trusts)

Careful, you're guilty there of the same thing you accuse Joensuu of... your 'simple choice' also happens to contain your own opinion about that choice - is it 'likely to produce weak Governments...'? In YOUR opinion, maybe. It just goes to show, impartial information about the vote and about the two systems is actually quite difficult to get if you're genuinely undecided and/or want to know more.

Thank you for illustrating my point nicely dune. You *think* you know what the implications are, but actually you do not, and cannot. Thus you seem to make assumptions based on your political leanings and your perceptions of voting patterns. You MIGHT be right, but it is only one possible scenario, and in order that people make informed choices, they need more than just your personal example.

It was always thus. Everything in politics seems to be conducted in the same way and if you want to actually learn about anything, find out policy, or explanations about things like AV, the best thing to do is avoid anything official and do your own research across the board. It also means discussions like this one and up and down the country, often use these propaganda items as tools to recruit or argue, so it's no wonder apathy rules... most people would like a simple explanation, with examples, and to then make up their own mind, and are fed up with being told x or y is right or wrong, when it's usually neither and a matter of opinion and personal belief. Some of the comments and claims from both Yes and No camps are ridiculous and most logical people can see right through it. The problem is that a lot of people aren't logical and can't think for themselves, so such propaganda carries weight with them. They make up their minds through false arguments or based on pre-conceptions or secondary issues and the net result is that style triumphs over substance. I find it all rather disappointing - I would like to hear coherent and respectful arguments from both sides, but it'll never happen.

Not a lot of use without a detonator and power source. Although I guess if you're going in the chair, only the detonator would be needed...

Two other bombs were sent to two other prominent Celtic fans, an ex-MSP and a QC. All a bit sick really.