Minty

Why spoil a nice post, with a snipe at others? Or did you only post it so you could make that snipe? Either way, it's a shame you feel the need to do so.

In the interests of balance given the thread about the press photographer ban, I think it's only fair to say that I think this is a good idea. It gives fans an alternative option, which I think is decent value compared to buying the printed version. Plus, I'm sure it won't just be 'geeky collectors' who think the same. Alpine, maybe next time you're at a game, you might care to have a look at the diversity of all those who are reading a programme, and decide just how geeky they are? Maybe go up and ask one or two of them just how geeky they are how many they have stored at home...?!

If you read through the thread you'll realise it's not that simple, hence why some of us are concerned.

lol, aren't yours just syndicated from Getty or somewhere anyway? Or you know someone who has access? I'm sure you mentioned it before...

I could've saved myself a lot of time today, had I put it like that 2 pages ago...!

Dibden Purlieu Saint - this is exactly what I mean. Fully agree Dynamo.

You think it is trivial, others do not. My concern, and that of others it seems, it not surrounding this specific action and the direct reaction, but the wider implications... the perception of the club for this and other recent decisions, that appear to put profit before anything else, and the potential ramifications if sponsors or fans or others involved with the club, feel they are acting in a manner which is exploitative or too selfish. Can you not at least appreciate that concern?

Is there any need for this kind of comment? Our 'collective period' is a valid concern. I fully expect some people not to agree, as is their right, but would it hurt to have a little respect for a different point of view? That would be a fair point is this solely related to cost, however the issue is more about restricting access and choice, and effectively controlling the market, by restricting who can and can't take photos at St Mary's. I fully accept that it is a valid revenue stream, and that deals for exclusivity are the norm in many areas of sport and business, but I just feel that are more constructive ways of creating revenue than working against the media in this way, and potentially restricting fans' access to matchday images.

Aye. I also got a face-to-face bollocking from Gordon Strachan at a training session once, but I'll save that story for another day.

lol! Anyway, I observed a corner routine at an open training session, many years ago, and posted it on Saintslist. As I remember, Ripley was taking the corner on the right and went to pass it short to someone, who dummied it, for Dodd to whip it in from around the apex of the 18-yard box. I think Hoddle was in charge. The players agreed that they woudl do it for the second corner from that side of the pitch in the game. It got back to the club that this info had been posted on a public forum and the club then banned fans from Staplewood completely! I got a bit of grief from fellow fans, but most people saying 'it's an overreaction... if clubs really wanted to spy on us, they could've sent their own person in to watch what was, after all an open training session'. It was in the Pink and Graham Hiley who still worked there at the time, even wrote an article saying that 'one fan, who just wanted to look popular on an internet mailing list, has ruined it for everyone else'!!! I had to chuckle at that. The internet is serious f'ing business after all. Anyway, maybe with hindsight it was silly, but i never really thought it was that big a deal. Someone obviously did.

It's worth saying IMO, that I don't think it's fair to label Cortese as arrogant or egotistical. Definately not egotistical infact. He is simply doing what he feels is right for the club. I don't think anyone is qualified to make such judgements unless they've met him. Unfortunately, things like this will always give rise to people making judgements about him.

Indeed. If it sticks, (and as Steve points out, BR's similar plan didn't last) then I can see others doing it, but I do wonder what the Football League would have to say if more clubs followed suit, because of the implications for the collective rights and licensing agreements they have through DataCo. That goes beyond my knowledge...

That was quite awhile ago now, and on Saintslist! And it was a bit more than just 'some grief'!!!

Well, in that case, the answer to your question is: No, it doesn't directly affect the team or the possible 3 points. But that's not why we're discussing it. Careful... who is this 'we' you refer to? The bottom line is that *I* want to talk about anything I feel is important to me. The way our club behaves and conducts itself is important to me. I feel in this instance, like other recent instances, we're doing the wrong thing. I fully agree that English football is no shining light, hence my comment earlier that I don't *blame* NC for this... it's simply what he feels is best to generate revenue. However I don't have to agree with it, or the other myriad of examples where money comes first in football these days.

Delldays, seriously, if YOU'RE not interested in this particular piece of news, then so be it, but don't belittle those who feel it is important and worthy of discussion.

Sorry, I have actually misled you there... clubs will still have to pay Football DataCo for their licence to print photos, all that's happening is SFC are restricting where media can buy photos from... meaning they are the beneficiaries of all photo sales for games at St Mary's. So, basically, maximising profit by exploiting the fact that he can control who enters SMS. And DellDays... there's a match build up thread for that discussion.

No agency photographers, nor indeed any photographer, are let in free of charge. As I mentioned above, any accredited media has to pay a significant amount just to be accredited, and to gain entry to a Football League or Premier League venue to take photos. End users ALSO have to pay a significant licence fee to be able to use any photos that either their own 'togs take, or that they buy from agencies, just like Steve and Baj do to publish the fixtures on this site. Football DataCO do this ON BEHALF of clubs and the leagues... so effectively what NC is doing is removing SFC from that collective agreement, and entering into his own, which is a lot more restrictive, and could possibly (i don't know exactl how it is calculated) be to the detriment of other clubs by weakening Football DataCs's position. I'm no fan of Football DataCo either btw, as they have restrictions that make the Pentagon easy to get in and take photos, but at least it is a consistent agreement across all clubs. And for the record, theatres and other entertainment venues all have very similar policies, depending on how big they are, for controlling access. However they tend to view things more from a point of view that allowing photos of performances etc is good for promotion and PR, and often work closely with local media who may take photos and then also allow the venue usage of those photos, or vice versa, distribute their own photos for use in the local media.

I agree with much of what you say, but to be fair, I think the Echo will be ok as they find solidarity amongst other media and even if they can't get in themselves (clubs are unlikely to care too much) they will get shots from other local newspapers as they do currently and have done for years.

One further point on this... Saints have a freelancer under contract to be their official photographer, same arrangement (or very similar) to when I worked for them. If it was ME who had that contract, I would be VERY nervous about this policy, because I would also rely on work from other places like the very same newspapers etc who've been banned from SMS. And knowing how that industry works, Saints' photographer could well find himself losing a lot of work on principle as the industry closes ranks on this.

I never lose hope. I'm an optimistic person, as you know from matchday thread

A few points on this. This IS new. All grounds in the country are covered by the similar set of rules as fixtures, i.e. permission for access, photography and subsequent use of images/fixtures, or anything deemed to be property of the FA/Football League, must be applied for by bona fide organisations only, and a fee paid, to Football DataCo Limited, who control it on behalf of the teams and leagues. Once accredited, they apply in writing for each game and get their names on the list to attend. Each club can control who they admit, but in all the time I've been going or taking photos, Saints have never done this. So this IS new. Fans with professional looking camera equipment, or what looks like it (or sometimes not, but the steward is having a bad day), will be stopped, because of the potential to take images which could be sold on, infringing the above agreements etc. That's never changed. I fully understand that some fans don't care about the business side of things and just want us to do as well as possible, but doing so like this could cause us problems. By denying direct access to ALL local and national media, they are indirectly going to be ******ing off an awful lot of people, and fans, and to what end? Revenue streams are important, but this kind of thing also risks LOSING revenue through the loss of goodwill from people who use those newspapers and media outlets, like other sponsors. Some fans seem to think that anything NC does which they perceive to be 'running the club more like a business' is a good thing. But there are good business decisions and bad business decisions. There are also decisions which appear to be good for the bottom line in the short term, but the longer term effects might be negative. If the pursuit of profit starts to blind the management from the original purpose and place of football clubs, then I can see it backfiring. To me, good business sense is creating new revenue streams that add variety, quality and value, whilst also creating a sense of loyalty and respect for a brand that people want to buy or invest in. All of the revenue streams that NC has created recently strike me as being nothing more than exploitation. Exploiting a fanbase through ticket charges and car park fees because the fans can't go anywhere else. Exploiting media who have no choice but to pay for images, or go without. Exploiting an aflluent area of the country by attracting more people who can pay upfront for a product, and denying those who find it hard to do so, and without any warning or time to adjust. And all the time, it leaves resentment about the brand and destroys loyalty and respect for the brand. But football is different, because most fans will always be loyal to their club, and will always do whatever they need to do to watch their team play. As a result sponsors, media and other associated companies will do what they need to do to benefit from that kind of blindly loyal customer base, because there is no other alternative for them. Fans or sponsors may complain, but with no other alternatives, they have to get used to it. NC and others in football rely on that. Sadly, it's all just another inevitable step for football as a whole. Profit comes before inclusiveness, co-operation, community and accessibility. It has done since Sky's massive injection in the 90's, and long before that too, and whilst most fans just want to see a successful football team on the pitch, and don't care enough to change what happens behind the scenes, why should the owners and management have a conscience about how that happens? As a result, my concerns in the previous paragraphs about what would *normally* happens in business if a company starts to exploit it's customers, will probably not happen in football. I personally think it stinks, but it's football (and life) as we know it. So, all-in-all, a pretty pointless rant to most people, that will no doubt attract the usual responses. I had hoped NC and ML might be a bit different and start to make the club more sustainable in ways that might set an example for football, and leave fans with some hope that the game was being returned to them. But no.

So, new season nearly upon us... any of these happened yet?!

Save yourself the hassle. Uwe Rösler.

They're on here too... well, most of them I think.

And I don't for one minute believe that Mr Grant is drinking pints either...