alpine_saint

Their wives and girlfriends ?

lallana not fit then ? A pity..

This, absolutely. If Capello did it, I might be inclined to support England in Ukraine/Poland

You forget that I wasnt a "local" in the North-west, so I dont accept your analogy. I made my own observations, I didnt go on the opinion of those around me, since they were clearly biased. And I am compeltely unaware of what Boris Johnson has said on the matter.

Why on earth would such a conspiracy have existed ? Maggie didnt like Scousers ? Having a dig back at Derek Hatton and Liverpool's militancy ? Its a bit hard to believe it would have gone further than senior officers in an arse-covering exercise...

Its a reasonable argument. I just fear the main reason this is being pushed for is to bash the police further (more compensation ????) If it has materially been proven already that the police were the "main" cause, as UmP keeps going on about, I think it is reasonable that the document release is a footbote to history, and not a reason for a further round of damages claims.

I have spent a huge amount of time in the North-West, since I studied there and went out with a girl there for a few years too. Though I must admit more of it was on the Manchester side. You are absolutely right about sense of community and social solidarity up there, and I agree that its a pity that there isnt more of that in the South. But, and it is a big but, the wallowing in self-pity IS a uniquely Liverpool thing. Sorry, the people in the other large cities in the area, like Manchester, simply arent like that at all. Do we still hear bleating about the Warrington or Arndale bombs ?

Well I dont think his terms of reference were wide, and there is a huge difference in the meaning of the words "main" and "sole". You dont seem to be banging on about the role of the FA, Sheffield council or SWFC at all.... EDIT: You obviously dont like the perceived smearing of the fans and victims by the police, but that is a separate issue that seems to be clouding your objectivity.

I just read a report on the Guardain site, that has highlighted that the grounds safety certificate was out-of-date, and that South Yorks Police, SWFC and Sheffied Council were sued and paid damages over this. So why in f**ks name is this still going on now ? Surely the payment of damages is an admission of culpability ?

I dont particularly care for the patronising tone you are adopting on this. Taylor was given a limited remit when investigating this, so issues such as the one Frank has raised were probably outside his remit. If you look at the recommendations part, he is only interested in the control inside and outside the grounds, not the social background. I have read some of the interim report now. It seems clear to me he is not blaming the police, or the ground, but a number of factors including them, but ALSO including the fact that the gates were rushed by a large number of fans some of which did not have tickets.

I see the report overlooks us, but nice to see Ian Wright hasnt.

A good post. The debate seems to have polarised into blaming the police/exonerating the Liverpool fans and blaming the Liverpool fans/exonerating the police, when the reality is somewhere in between. But in fairness, it seems to me that the families and the media are causing this polarisation to happen still. Yes, I know the Sun reporting back then was disgraceful, but wasnt that dealt with in court already ??

And the stand had a safety rating for a given number of people, presumably equalling the amount of tickets that were made available. Or are we now on to blaming Sheffield Council and Sheff Wed FC as well ?

Because he does not perform at his supposed ability for England, has a detrimental effect on the team, and maybe another player would enhance the whole team performance more than him. It would then be madness to disrupt that team.

So, if the ticketless fans thing is a really a myth, why werent such disasters happening at Hillsborough every weekend at that time ?

Nope, I've liked every Scouser I've ever met, and thoroughly enjoyed every visit I've made to the city. But there is some bizarre combination of arrogance and self-pity that afflicts the people there whenever some collective tragedy occurs. And nobody feels their loss like the people of Liverpool, of course. The rest of us clearly have a lower level of sentience...

As I said, always the fault lies elsewhere. If the Heysel Stadium disaster was so clear-cut, why was no successful challenge to the banning of English clubs in European competitions for 5 years ever mounted ?

Finally, the penny drops. I couldnt give a sh*t what is written by some old duffer in some government enquiry with a pre-defined agenda. You'll be saying you believe the Hutton report about the Iraq war legality next... The fact is, LFC and their fans felt in the 80s that they owned football and were bigger than football itself, and did what they like. It has been statistically proven that visting teams never got penalties at Anfield. I suppose its a minor miracle something similar didnt happen in the 90's or noughties with ManYoo fans.

So I suppose Heysel was the police's fault as well ? Always someone else's fault with Scousers. Yes, West Yorks Police screwed up big time, but if so many Scousers hadnt turned up without tickets, they wouldn't have needed to make stupid decisions.

If we had the PL1 and PL2 model with 36 teams in a closed shop but movement between the two allowed, I would be very interested in what criteria would be applied for 1. Which 36 teams ? 2. Which of the 36 go into PL1 and which into PL2 ? Would they do it on accumulated record over PL history (in which case we'd probably just about scrape into PL1..still...)? Would they do it on club turnover ? Attendance ? For the other 56 clubs, this would be a death warrant. The legal battles would tie this up in a court for GENERATIONS.

It was Dragon and Leopard. The Dragon was Brit-crewed, the Leopard French-crewed.

I would be even more driven to watch my kids teams in preference to the pro game.

This. Considering the TV money floating around, and the ridiculous amounts invested by foreign owners, it was only a matter of time. If it happens it will kill the goose laying the golden eggs. Football will be finished in 10 years.

A valid point. Our home form cant last forever, however much we hope. When that changes, so will our position in the table.