Britain under the Conservatives

[Fuengirola Saint]

Have a look at this, it's quite long but interesting

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-welcome-to-cameron-land-1962318.html

[1976_Child]

yeah, sod it. I'm going to vote Labour because the country is in such a great shape and I have no worries at all.

[Fuengirola Saint]

yeah, sod it. I'm going to vote Labour because the country is in such a great shape and I have no worries at all.

 

So you would prefer the Hammersmith and Fulham model then? You said in an earlier post that you weren't a Tory, I beg to differ

[OldNick]

Google him and read his stuff. Lol.

Already there has been counter claims to his inaccurate account.

[dune]

Fungi doesn't even live in England.

[1976_Child]

So you would prefer the Hammersmith and Fulham model then? You said in an earlier post that you weren't a Tory, I beg to differ

 

You don't make sense. In your warped world anyone who criticizes the Labour government and remarks that the country is in a carp state must automatically be a Card Carrying Conservative!

 

And how can you 'beg to differ' on something that you have absolutely no knowledge of!!!

 

The article is pure fantasy bull****. Typical of that sort of Champagne Socialism. Some effete wordsmith sitting in his ivory tower getting paid handsomely by a left wing paper to slag of the favourites in the election and pontificate to 'the people' about how things should be. It is desperate stuff.

Edited 5 May, 2010 by 1976_Child

[Fuengirola Saint]

You don't make sense. In your warped world anyone who criticizes the Labour government and remarks that the country is in a carp state must automatically be a Card Carrying Conservative!

 

And how can you 'beg to differ' on something that you have absolutely no knowledge of!!!

 

Get over yourself mush, you just come across as a Tory, it obviously hit a nerve otherwise you would not have responded to the article in that manner. Another thing i can beg to differ about absolutely anything i want!

[Fuengirola Saint]

Fungi doesn't even live in England.

 

I know i'm an immigrant :-o

[GenevaSaint]

getting paid handsomely by a left wing paper to slag of the favourites in the election and pontificate to 'the people' about how things should be. It is desperate stuff.

 

The clue is in the title of the said paper. And to be fair to them, they are usually.

[GenevaSaint]

Have a look at this, it's quite long but interesting

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-welcome-to-cameron-land-1962318.html

 

The outcome there is what I worry about, but hey, it's a brave new Tory party Fuengirola. They've changed, we should all believe them.

[1976_Child]

Get over yourself mush, you just come across as a Tory, it obviously hit a nerve otherwise you would not have responded to the article in that manner. Another thing i can beg to differ about absolutely anything i want!

 

So I come across as a Tory, I must therefore be a Tory. There's logic. It hasn't hit a nerve at all. I am used to that sort of 'journalism' these days. The facts remain that the article is utter tosh, the sort of thing which adds nothing to the real debate. It is akin to the coverage the Sun gives against the Labour party. It is fluff, and factually incorrect fluff at that.

[1976_Child]

The clue is in the title of the said paper. And to be fair to them, they are usually.

 

Boll0x. Utter, utter boll0x.

 

The Independent is nothing of the sort. It is, always has been and always will be a left-leaning paper. It may keep its powder dry and not come out in support of any left-leaning party but that doesn't change its stance.

 

The only place it excels is in international coverage.

[Fuengirola Saint]

The clue is in the title of the said paper. And to be fair to them, they are usually.

 

What he said.

[solentstars]

Get over yourself mush, you just come across as a Tory, it obviously hit a nerve otherwise you would not have responded to the article in that manner. Another thing i can beg to differ about absolutely anything i want!

 

i agree it makes me laugh how many on here have only ever voted for the tory party,you could put a bag of potatoes up foe election has a tory mp and this lot would still vote for it.

the 80.s the rich got stinking rich at the expense of the ordinary person and lord ashcroft and his cronies and the same bankers who caused this recession will come out of this smelling of roses with their paybacks

it would be nice if the tory party worked for all Britons but i doubt it..

[1976_Child]

i agree it makes me laugh how many on here have only ever voted for the tory party,you could put a bag of potatoes up foe election has a tory mp and this lot would still vote for it.

the 80.s the rich got stinking rich at the expense of the ordinary person and lord ashcroft and his cronies and the same bankers who caused this recession will come out of this smelling of roses with their paybacks

it would be nice if the tory party worked for all Britons but i doubt it..

 

well the same could be said about Labour voters too. I have voted for all sorts of parties in the past, including Labour.

 

There are PLENTY of people who have got stinking rich under New Labour and countless people who have also fallen through the gaps into absolute poverty. Just look at Blair for Christ's sake! Then look at Mandelson and all the sleaze bags who have funded the Labour party. Oh, by the way the bankers (who i detest utterly) have been looked after very well by New Labour. There has been more face-time between Labour ministers and bankers/corporate execs than with unions and shop floor workers.

 

Also, it amazes me how many people still hark back to the 80s but not the 70s. In the 70s the country was utterly dysfunctional. Maybe the 80s weren't great for working people but the 70s were a disaster for everyone.

[solentstars]

well the same could be said about Labour voters too. I have voted for all sorts of parties in the past, including Labour.

 

There are PLENTY of people who have got stinking rich under New Labour and countless people who have also fallen through the gaps into absolute poverty. Just look at Blair for Christ's sake! Then look at Mandelson and all the sleaze bags who have funded the Labour party. Oh, by the way the bankers (who i detest utterly) have been looked after very well by New Labour. There has been more face-time between Labour ministers and bankers/corporate execs than with unions and shop floor workers.

 

Also, it amazes me how many people still hark back to the 80s but not the 70s. In the 70s the country was utterly dysfunctional. Maybe the 80s weren't great for working people but the 70s were a disaster for everyone.

i agree but you may be one of the independant voters and sadly their is not enough of them.

i might have been tempted by the torys but having a tax exile like ashcroft funding them and seeing the tory leadership hob nobing with the same bankers which caused this recession showed me they are just another blairite party.

[Joensuu]

Boll0x. Utter, utter boll0x.

 

The Independent is nothing of the sort. It is, always has been and always will be a left-leaning paper. It may keep its powder dry and not come out in support of any left-leaning party but that doesn't change its stance.

 

The only place it excels is in international coverage.

 

Calm down! Blimey did you get out of the wrong side of bed?

 

People to the right of centre often perceive the Indie (and the Beeb for that matter) to be left wing. They are wrong, both media sources attempt to be as neutrally centralist as they can, and only appear to be left of centre in comparision to the where people perceive the centre ground to lie. Just because Blair moved his party so far to the right, doesn't mean he took the centre ground with him.

 

From my own personal perspective the Indie and the Beeb are both far too right wing and authoritarian, just as from your perspective (probably) you see them both as left wing and liberal. In reality they hold the centre ground (and only look left wing in comparision to the majority of the media who are all pandering the the extreme right (Mail, Express, Telegraph, Times, Sun, Sky, ITV etc).

[Fuengirola Saint]

Maybe the 80s weren't great for working people but the 70s were a disaster for everyone.

 

That says it all "Maybe the 80s weren't great for working people" well working people are the majority in Britain the last time i looked so not really a good ad for Conservatism eh?

[Fuengirola Saint]

Calm down! Blimey did you get out of the wrong side of bed?

 

People to the right of centre often perceive the Indie (and the Beeb for that matter) to be left wing. They are wrong, both media sources attempt to be as neutrally centralist as they can, and only appear to be left of centre in comparision to the where people perceive the centre ground to lie. Just because Blair moved his party so far to the right, doesn't mean he took the centre ground with him.

 

From my own personal perspective the Indie and the Beeb are both far too right wing and authoritarian, just as from your perspective (probably) you see them both as left wing and liberal. In reality they hold the centre ground (and only look left wing in comparision to the majority of the media who are all pandering the the extreme right (Mail, Express, Telegraph, Times, Sun, Sky, ITV etc).

 

What he said as well!

[Joensuu]

i agree but you may be one of the independant voters and sadly their is not enough of them.

i might have been tempted by the torys but having a tax exile like ashcroft funding them and seeing the tory leadership hob nobing with the same bankers which caused this recession showed me they are just another blairite party.

 

Cameron isn't a Blairite, but Blair is a Tory. I just wish we could have a REAL choice rather than just the blue Tories vs the red Tories.

[1976_Child]

i agree but you may be one of the independant voters and sadly their is not enough of them.

i might have been tempted by the torys but having a tax exile like ashcroft funding them and seeing the tory leadership hob nobing with the same bankers which caused this recession showed me they are just another blairite party.

 

the Lib-dems have also been funded by a non-dom tax 'avoider'. Clegg's attitude is that it is ok because the person in question is not a member of the Lords. Well that won't wash with me! Either you do accept cash from non-doms or you don't but Clegg should not then criticize the tories because they do too.

 

On the subject of the Lords. There is one glaring example of Labour's shortcomings. They correctly booted out (most) of the hereditary peers but then conveniently stopped short of a full-blown reformation of the upper chamber into a fully elected House of Lords because it meant they could stuff the place with their cronies, which in fairness is what the tories have always done when they were in power. And there was Brown on one of TV debates saying that if he is returned to power he will sort out the Lords!! Ah, bless! He has only had the past 13 years to do it after all!

[trousers]

 

That says it all "Maybe the 80s weren't great for working people" well working people are the majority in Britain the last time i looked so not really a good ad for Conservatism eh?

I was a working person and they were good for me.

 

Cue "exception that proves the rule" response

[1976_Child]

That says it all "Maybe the 80s weren't great for working people" well working people are the majority in Britain the last time i looked so not really a good ad for Conservatism eh?

 

You don't make sense. So what about the late 70s when the country was completely dysfunctional? eh?

 

I have conceded that the 80s were not great for many people, can you do the same with respects to the period of time that the Labour party completely ****ed up the country during the 70s? Or are you genetically incapable of acknowledging this inconvenient truth?!!

[trousers]

I was a working person and they were good for me.

 

Cue "exception that proves the rule" response

 

And, just for balance, I was also shafted whilst the Tories were in power...I lost £25k on a £60k house purchase in the late 80s / early 90s.

 

It would have been easy (lazy) of me to have laid all the blame of my misfortune on the "nasty" State that 'allowed' me to take out a 100% mortgage; that 'allowed' me to buy a house at the top of a house price peak...but that's not in my nature...I take responsibility for my own actions rather than laying the blame on the government.

 

Therein lies the difference between a 'socialist' view of the 80s and a 'conservative' (small 'c') view of the 80s. The former looks to blame the government the latter looks at their own actions and takes responsibility for them.

 

Vive la difference

[1976_Child]

Calm down! Blimey did you get out of the wrong side of bed?

 

People to the right of centre often perceive the Indie (and the Beeb for that matter) to be left wing. They are wrong, both media sources attempt to be as neutrally centralist as they can, and only appear to be left of centre in comparision to the where people perceive the centre ground to lie. Just because Blair moved his party so far to the right, doesn't mean he took the centre ground with him.

 

From my own personal perspective the Indie and the Beeb are both far too right wing and authoritarian, just as from your perspective (probably) you see them both as left wing and liberal. In reality they hold the centre ground (and only look left wing in comparision to the majority of the media who are all pandering the the extreme right (Mail, Express, Telegraph, Times, Sun, Sky, ITV etc).

 

Well actually you are kinda correct here. The perception is that the Indie is left-wing. As for the Beeb I have always thought that they do an excellent job of being neutral, and I particularly like it when they are forced to report on themselves! Then they are the very definition of professional; the chairman of the Beeb being grilled by Paxman over the Jonathan Ross saga was magical.

 

I really don't clasify myself as any 'wing'. I really do believe that the 'wings' of political thought are a hangover from days gone by. On many views I would be thought of as communist such as my pet-hate, second (holiday) homes. I firmly believe that unless there are strong mitigating circumstances if you are rich enough to buy a second home as a 'little retreat in the country' or a 'city pad' then you should have to pay 10 times the amount of council tax on that property which should be ring-fenced for providing subsidies for affordable housing.

 

On other issues I might be perceived as a right-winger, such as my attitude to the EU and other international institutions and my strong support for Trident.

 

I get the impression that the older generation tend to think along these outdated left-wing/right-wing lines but my generation views the world differently and has by and large no particular philosophical bent one way or the other.

[Fuengirola Saint]

You don't make sense. So what about the late 70s when the country was completely dysfunctional? eh?

 

I have conceded that the 80s were not great for many people, can you do the same with respects to the period of time that the Labour party completely ****ed up the country during the 70s? Or are you genetically incapable of acknowledging this inconvenient truth?!!

 

I wouldn't give all the blame to Labour, the Heath government did their share of damage in 1973 with an expansionary budget with an eye on the election( The Barber Boom ), that coupled with the oil crisis and worldwide stagflation meant that the Labour government had their work cut out. Can you tell me exactly which policies of that government did actually **** up the country because from my recollections it was quite a moderate government.

[Fuengirola Saint]

And, just for balance, I was also shafted whilst the Tories were in power...I lost £25k on a £60k house purchase in the late 80s / early 90s.

 

It would have been easy (lazy) of me to have laid all the blame of my misfortune on the "nasty" State that 'allowed' me to take out a 100% mortgage; that 'allowed' me to buy a house at the top of a house price peak...but that's not in my nature...I take responsibility for my own actions rather than laying the blame on the government.

 

Therein lies the difference between a 'socialist' view of the 80s and a 'conservative' (small 'c') view of the 80s. The former looks to blame the government the latter looks at their own actions and takes responsibility for them.

 

Vive la difference

 

It's not blaming the state for your own misfortune it's seeing it for what it was, an evil bigoted right wing rabble. To quote Nigel fat **** Lawson " high unemployment is a price worth paying to get inflation down " High unemployment is never a price worth paying end of!

[1976_Child]

It's not blaming the state for your own misfortune it's seeing it for what it was, an evil bigoted right wing rabble. To quote Nigel fat **** Lawson " high unemployment is a price worth paying to get inflation down " High unemployment is never a price worth paying end of!

 

Ok, so let's play devil's advocate here and suggest that even if everyone was gainfully employed and inflation was running at 30% per annum then ALL the people would be worse off than if three million are unemployed (and being supported just above the bread-line by the others) but inflation is a mild 2%.

 

We could give everyone on the dole a job tomorrow building bridges to no where. We could have all those who sign on at the Southampton job centre go and dig holes in Bournemouth, all those who sign on in Bournemouth go and dig holes in Pompey and all those who sign on in Pompey go dig holes in Southampton. Then when the whistle blows they can all rotate one position and start filling in the holes and repeat ad infinitum. All we need do is crank up the printing presses and print up a whole bunch of money to pay them all! They would all be really happy.... for about a year and then suddenly their after work pint would leap up to £10, then £100, then £1000 etc..

 

It may have been a crass statement, but actually it is sound economics under the current system (see my other posts in other threads)

[trousers]

 

It's not blaming the state for your own misfortune it's seeing it for what it was, an evil bigoted right wing rabble. To quote Nigel fat **** Lawson " high unemployment is a price worth paying to get inflation down " High unemployment is never a price worth paying end of!

I don't agree with everything the Tories did in the 80s but I recognise the fact that the country needed some shock treatment by a strong leader. Even B-liar and Brown recognise Thatcher's strengths.

 

What I also agree with you on is that the 80s take on conservatism wouldn't work in today's world, much as Blair recognised that the 70s take on Labour and Socialism wouldn't be effective in the late 90s and beyond (hence adopting Tory spending plans in their first few years back in power)

 

All I'm advocating is that naturally leaning left people do is give the same benefit of the doubt that they were pleading with the country to give Labour in 1997.

 

Ok, if Cameron reverts to the 80s Tory approach within the next 5 years I'll be first to put my hands up and say I was wrong but for now I believe he's as sincere in his party modernisation attempts as Blair was in his party modernisation attempts.

 

That's all.

[1976_Child]

All I'm advocating is that naturally leaning left people do is give the same benefit of the doubt that they were pleading with the country to give Labour in 1997.

 

Ok, if Cameron reverts to the 80s Tory approach within the next 5 years I'll be first to put my hands up and say I was wrong but for now I believe he's as sincere in his party modernisation attempts as Blair was in his party modernisation attempts.

 

That's all.

 

here, here!

 

That is the essence of why I am prepared to lend Cameron my vote. I actually do believe that he, and the party, is now fundamentally changed from the 'Loads a money' rampant capitalist party it was in the 80s. Times are very different now, but I too will be very disappointed if Cameron wins and then turns around and tries to re-stoke the financial system at the expense of the rest of us. Don't forget that he alone amongst the main three leaders has said that he will introduce a bank tax and also he has stated publicly that he wants to cap city bonuses - which any sane-minded man should find utterly disgusting (the bonuses, that is.)

[Fuengirola Saint]

here, here!

 

That is the essence of why I am prepared to lend Cameron my vote. I actually do believe that he, and the party, is now fundamentally changed from the 'Loads a money' rampant capitalist party it was in the 80s. Times are very different now, but I too will be very disappointed if Cameron wins and then turns around and tries to re-stoke the financial system at the expense of the rest of us. Don't forget that he alone amongst the main three leaders has said that he will introduce a bank tax and also he has stated publicly that he wants to cap city bonuses - which any sane-minded man should find utterly disgusting (the bonuses, that is.)

 

You will never persuade me to trust the Tories( If we'd never had thatcherism i.e one nation Conservatism as in the MacMillan and Heath governments, then maybe ) but i think we will be able to see if they revert to type because i have a feeling they will win with a small majority tomorrow :-(

[Thedelldays]

It's not blaming the state for your own misfortune it's seeing it for what it was, an evil bigoted right wing rabble. To quote Nigel fat **** Lawson " high unemployment is a price worth paying to get inflation down " High unemployment is never a price worth paying end of!

at the end of the day..none of this matters to you, you dont live here

[Fuengirola Saint]

at the end of the day..none of this matters to you, you dont live here

 

I have friends and family that live there and after all it is still my country,i just live here to broaden my horizons a bit, it's sunny and warm and a bottle of beer is only €1 :-)

[Thedelldays]

I have friends and family that live there and after all it is still my country,i just live here to broaden my horizons a bit, it's sunny and warm and a bottle of beer is only €1 :-)

great, then no need to get all excited if the tories win..

[trousers]

 

You will never persuade me to trust the Tories( If we'd never had thatcherism i.e one nation Conservatism as in the MacMillan and Heath governments, then maybe ) but i think we will be able to see if they revert to type because i have a feeling they will win with a small majority tomorrow :-(

 

Cameron has declared he is a 'one nation' conservative.

 

Isn't one of the supposed attributes of a 'caring sharing' socialist an ability to give people the benefit of the doubt and give people a chance?

 

How come this philosophy isn't all encompassing....? Come on, give cameron a chance...you know it's the 'nice' thing to do ;-)

[Fuengirola Saint]

great, then no need to get all excited if the tories win..

 

I won't, it'll just be a bit **** to see all their smug ****ty faces on tv afterwards, mind you as Mervyn King said " The party which wins this election will be out of power for a generation afterwards " :-)

[Fuengirola Saint]

Cameron has declared he is a 'one nation' conservative.

 

Isn't one of the supposed attributes of a 'caring sharing' socialist an ability to give people the benefit of the doubt and give people a chance?

 

How come this philosophy isn't all encompassing....? Come on, give cameron a chance...you know it's the 'nice' thing to do ;-)

 

He's about as much One Nation Conservative as me! I don't have a vote anyway

[trousers]

 

You will never persuade me to trust the Tories( If we'd never had thatcherism i.e one nation Conservatism as in the MacMillan and Heath governments, then maybe ) but i think we will be able to see if they revert to type because i have a feeling they will win with a small majority tomorrow :-(

 

If (shock horror) it turns out in 5 years that cameron has indeed reformed the Tory party into something thst benefitted all, would you then consider voting for them next time? Genuine question

 

If it helps, I once considered voting for Blair (in 2002)

[Fuengirola Saint]

If (shock horror) it turns out in 5 years that cameron has indeed reformed the Tory party into something thst benefitted all, would you then consider voting for them next time? Genuine question

 

Yes, probably (re my comment about not having had Thatcherism) but it's not going to happen is it?

[trousers]

 

He's about as much One Nation Conservative as me! I don't have a vote anyway

 

In principle? (btw, we don't yet know how sincere he is. You're guessing he isn't, I'm guessing he is)

[trousers]

 

Yes, probably (re my comment about not having had Thatcherism) but it's not going to happen is it?

 

That remains to be seen. Perhaps...

[aintforever]

That writer could easily have written a similar article about a dysfunctional Labour council, I refuse to read any papers around election time because they are ALL full of the usual crap.