bungle Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7764069.stm Truly excellent news to see the Government defeated on this issue. Although I await to see what kind of botched replacement law they come up with so they can try and hold all of our data. The Scottish system is, IMO, right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Just seen this on the BBC news. Absolutely fantastic IMO, and a bit of a blow for the Government in their plans to tag us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 LOL. Not sure if you missed the bit about 'fingerprints' as well as DNA. So you're happy to destroy the fingerprint database too are you? Good luck catching the next burglar that breaks into your house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 LOL. Not sure if you missed the bit about 'fingerprints' as well as DNA. So you're happy to destroy the fingerprint database too are you? Good luck catching the next burglar that breaks into your house. I believe they will retain DNA / fingerprints of those found to be guilty. It is unlikely, I think, that an innocent person would burgle a house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 I believe they will retain DNA / fingerprints of those found to be guilty. It is unlikely, I think, that an innocent person would burgle a house. Howe about is Johnny Average was falsely arrested of robbery, finger printed and then fund guilty. Those prints then removed and he then decides to have a go at robbing your house... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 I believe they will retain DNA / fingerprints of those found to be guilty. It is unlikely, I think, that an innocent person would burgle a house. So unlikely that the people that burgle houses are in fact born guilty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungle Posted 4 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 December, 2008 howe about is johnny average was falsely arrested of robbery, finger printed and then fund guilty. Those prints then removed and he then decides to have a go at robbing your house... oh noes!!!111 let's make everyone submit a 25 page form applying for specific permissions everytime they want to leave their house!!!! Everyone is a criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouchie's Lawyer Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Howe about is Johnny Average was falsely arrested of robbery, finger printed and then fund guilty. Those prints then removed and he then decides to have a go at robbing your house... Translated should read... How about if Johnny Average was falsely arrested for robbery, finger printed and found not guilty. The finger prints then removed from the database, and then he decides to go and rob your house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 oh noes!!!111 let's make everyone submit a 25 page form applying for specific permissions everytime they want to leave their house!!!! Everyone is a criminal. So the Communists were wrong to control their citizens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Translated should read... My fingers are too fat from all the printers ink... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 oh noes!!!111 let's make everyone submit a 25 page form applying for specific permissions everytime they want to leave their house!!!! Everyone is a criminal. Where have I said anything along those lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Howe about is Johnny Average was falsely arrested of robbery, finger printed and then fund guilty. Those prints then removed and he then decides to have a go at robbing your house... Eh :confused: If he's found guilty his fingerprints won't be destroyed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Oh come on Pancake, it's not particularly ethical to keep records of everybody just in case they ever commit a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Plod has my DNA and finger prints. And I'm one of the good guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Eh :confused: If he's found guilty his fingerprints won't be destroyed! Sorry, I was having a fat (cold) fingers moment. It should have read how INS re-quoted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Oh come on Pancake, it's not particularly ethical to keep records of everybody just in case they ever commit a crime. Not even if it acts as a deterrent to crime - presumably it makes the burglars think a bit more as they put gloves on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Not even if it acts as a deterrent to crime - presumably it makes the burglars think a bit more as they put gloves on.... No, not even under those circumstances. Even if they could prove it reduced crime (a statistic which has not been forthcoming in any argument so far) it's still not enough of an argument IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 No, not even under those circumstances. Even if they could prove it reduced crime (a statistic which has not been forthcoming in any argument so far) it's still not enough of an argument IMO. What about helping to solve crimes - rather than reducing them - and putting the perpetrators in prison? Some might argue that locking the bad guys away will help reduce crime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungle Posted 4 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 December, 2008 What about helping to solve crimes - rather than reducing them - and putting the perpetrators in prison? Some might argue that locking the bad guys away will help reduce crime That's never been proven either. And what happened to innocent until proven guilty? Why should everyone have their data held and be treated as a criminal at all times? This country is so proud because of it's liberal history, not it's removal of rights and liberties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 I'm with Bungle 100% on this, and I'm pretty certain there isn't much mutual respect between us regarding our political views. I only hope our shared disgust for the proposed ID cards is a microcosm of the country and its citizens as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 That's never been proven either. And what happened to innocent until proven guilty? Why should everyone have their data held and be treated as a criminal at all times? This country is so proud because of it's liberal history, not it's removal of rights and liberties. I have my fingerprints on file - not sure about DNA, but doubt it - and I don't feel like a criminal at all, don't feel I'm treated like one either. As for innocent until proven guilty, isn't that what the 'evidence' - such as DNA and fingerprints - is collected for to be presented to a judge / jury? I don't think anyone is advocating doing away with the judicial system just yet are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsash saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 If you haven't done anything wrong then surely you haven't got anything to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungle Posted 4 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 December, 2008 If you haven't done anything wrong then surely you haven't got anything to worry about. Worst argument of the lot, by some distance. I do not want to be watched over at all times on the basis that I may decide to do something wrong. I, and all citizens, are entitled to a private life and personal freedoms. Sadly, they are being stripped away, and even more sadly many people are willing to stand by and accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Fantastic news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jillyanne Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 If you haven't done anything wrong then surely you haven't got anything to worry about. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Exactly. What about, if you don't do anything wrong then they've no reason to watch you or keep you on file? Just as pertinent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Worst argument of the lot, by some distance. I do not want to be watched over at all times on the basis that I may decide to do something wrong. I, and all citizens, are entitled to a private life and personal freedoms. Sadly, they are being stripped away, and even more sadly many people are willing to stand by and accept it. LOL. We should do away with the Police force as well then shouldn't we? Surely all citizens are entitled to a private life, and hey if they go and commit murder, rape or pillage in their own private time it's nothing to do with anyone else is it? Damn this nasty police force for watching over us in case we do something wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 What about, if you don't do anything wrong then they've no reason to watch you or keep you on file? Just as pertinent. I imagine they don't have the time, resources or inclination to watch people who are abiding by the laws of the land.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungle Posted 4 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 December, 2008 LOL. We should do away with the Police force as well then shouldn't we? Surely all citizens are entitled to a private life, and hey if they go and commit murder, rape or pillage in their own private time it's nothing to do with anyone else is it? Damn this nasty police force for watching over us in case we do something wrong. Excellent. You have totally lost the plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Let's not get started on the abilities of the Police/Government, their resource distribution or their chances of not making a monumental **** up of it all anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Excellent. You have totally lost the plot. Great comeback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Let's not get started on the abilities of the Police/Government, their resource distribution or their chances of not making a monumental **** up of it all anyway. A little ironic don't you think that it is only ever the **** ups that get reported. Meanwhile hundreds of guilty people are going to prison every week.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungle Posted 4 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 December, 2008 A little ironic don't you think that it is only ever the **** ups that get reported. Meanwhile hundreds of guilty people are going to prison every week.... I take issue with this on 2 counts: 1) We are sending far too many people to prison. Prison doesn't work. 2) We aren't actually catching enough real criminals. The Govt and Police are poncing about talking tough, but they fail to actually arrest people who are committing crimes. If they'd stop talking tough, and if they stopped wasting money on things like ID Cards, then perhaps the police could deter crime by actually catching criminals in the first place, something they are not doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 That's never been proven either. And what happened to innocent until proven guilty? Why should everyone have their data held and be treated as a criminal at all times? This country is so proud because of it's liberal history, not it's removal of rights and liberties. The State of Fear has really reached you hasn't it. Maybe it clouds the judgement, i don't know, but just because DNA and/or fingerprints are on a database doesn't mean you'll be "treated as a criminal at all times.". IMHO there are genuine ethical reasons against the introduction of a full DNA database, but melodramatic fear is not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 A little ironic don't you think that it is only ever the **** ups that get reported. Meanwhile hundreds of guilty people are going to prison every week.... Let's hope you're not the first statistical ****-up when the iD cards finally crawl under the radar then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungle Posted 4 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 December, 2008 The State of Fear has really reached you hasn't it. Maybe it clouds the judgement, i don't know, but just because DNA and/or fingerprints are on a database doesn't mean you'll be "treated as a criminal at all times.". IMHO there are genuine ethical reasons against the introduction of a full DNA database, but melodramatic fear is not one of them. Maybe that's not the original intention, but I have to say with everything they are trying to introduce it is tough to think that these powers and resources will not be mis-used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 I take issue with this on 2 counts: 1) We are sending far too many people to prison. Prison doesn't work. 2) We aren't actually catching enough real criminals. The Govt and Police are poncing about talking tough, but they fail to actually arrest people who are committing crimes. If they'd stop talking tough, and if they stopped wasting money on things like ID Cards, then perhaps the police could deter crime by actually catching criminals in the first place, something they are not doing. Ok apart from the huge irony where you say we are putting far too many people in prison, and then state the police could deter crime by catching criminals - heaven knows what we are to do with them when they're caught 1) Prison doesn't work because the more liberal in our society have campaigned for prisoners to get more and more rights over the years, that prison is seen as more of a holiday camp than a punishment. 2) Isn't that even more ironic that we aren't catching enough real criminals. I would suggest that the ability to catch the criminals still exists, it's just that the evolution of our judiciary system now makes it harder to prosecute. Taking away the DNA and fingerprint databases will just make things more difficult won't it? You can't really complain that we aren't catching enough criminals with one breath and then state that the tools that will aid in this catching and prosecution shouldn't be allowed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungle Posted 4 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Ok apart from the huge irony where you say we are putting far too many people in prison, and then state the police could deter crime by catching criminals - heaven knows what we are to do with them when they're caught 1) Prison doesn't work because the more liberal in our society have campaigned for prisoners to get more and more rights over the years, that prison is seen as more of a holiday camp than a punishment. 2) Isn't that even more ironic that we aren't catching enough real criminals. I would suggest that the ability to catch the criminals still exists, it's just that the evolution of our judiciary system now makes it harder to prosecute. Taking away the DNA and fingerprint databases will just make things more difficult won't it? You can't really complain that we aren't catching enough criminals with one breath and then state that the tools that will aid in this catching and prosecution shouldn't be allowed.... You are completely wrong. 1) This is a load of cr*p. Prison doesn't work because the more liberal in our society have been ignored. For the most serious criminals it should be real punishment, and sentences should mean what they say. For most, however, it should act as a real opportunity to re-train, learn skills and be giving a chance to start again in society. At the moment prison just breeds repeat offenders. 2) Again, you are wrong. The reason we aren't catching them is because we aren't catching them, it has nothing to do with ability to procesute. This is partly because police are overstretched financially. I love the irony that you think liberals are causing all the problems. I just wish that real liberal views and ideals had a chance to be put into practice. Sadly, we continue to be ignored by reactionary governments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 You are completely wrong. 1) This is a load of cr*p. Prison doesn't work because the more liberal in our society have been ignored. For the most serious criminals it should be real punishment, and sentences should mean what they say. For most, however, it should act as a real opportunity to re-train, learn skills and be giving a chance to start again in society. At the moment prison just breeds repeat offenders. 2) Again, you are wrong. The reason we aren't catching them is because we aren't catching them, it has nothing to do with ability to procesute. This is partly because police are overstretched financially. I love the irony that you think liberals are causing all the problems. I just wish that real liberal views and ideals had a chance to be put into practice. Sadly, we continue to be ignored by reactionary governments. Well the voters anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungle Posted 4 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Well the voters anyway. Again, you are wrong as I have used liberal with a small l. Attention to detail is obviously not your thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Again, you are wrong as I have used liberal with a small l. Attention to detail is obviously not your thing. And yet you state 'your' policies have been ignored for years. Have you considered the fact that everyone else thinks they might be wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungle Posted 4 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 December, 2008 And yet you state 'your' policies have been ignored for years. Have you considered the fact that everyone else thinks they might be wrong? I think you'll find I used the phrase "views and ideals". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 I think you'll find I used the phrase "views and ideals". And they are still being ignored Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 people with the views much like bungles crack me up.. they say prisons dont work, yet their type (not you directly bungle) are the sort that bring about the fluffy society some prisons have become... their views are left wing sure, but then moan when we get left wing policies....being involved in your lives, the government running more and more things, red tape, local authorities, is exactly what the left do...and we will see it more and more now brown is in power... here is an idea...how about we simply lock up anyone who gets caught with a gun for 20 years...or 10 years if you have a knife..no questions asked...no chance of getting out early and no fluffy times... i reckon we would soon see a drop in the crime targeted.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 Maybe that's not the original intention, but I have to say with everything they are trying to introduce it is tough to think that these powers and resources will not be mis-used. The potential for a future government with extreme views to mis-use this information is what scares me the most. And don't say that we'll never have a government of extreme views - nobody knows that for sure. Last time we talked about this, there was mention of a case of an innocent man's fingerprints being 'lifted' and transposed to a piece of evidence. He didn't have a criminal record but his fingerprints were on the database from a past incident. Of course, his fingerprints on the database matched those on the evidence and he was charged. And, of course again, eventually he managed to prove his innocence but only after a lot of grief and, IIRC, loss of income because of the implications. Let's face it databases are not error-proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al de Man Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 We had an attempted break in at work a few years ago and I submitted my fingerprints for the purposes of elimination. Earlier this year, we did some work at a firm of solicitors and speaking to one of the criminal lawyers, she was almost certain that the police would still have a record of my prints. My initial reaction was shock and annoyance, but after a short while I was okay with it seeing as I don't intend to commit any crime in the future. I'd be much happier though if they were given powers by the Government to compile these databases legitimately rather than in this underhand manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 And don't say that we'll never have a government of extreme views - nobody knows that for sure. We have one now. Since '97 New Labour has had a policy on immigration* that Maggie would have been proud of. It also put the country at war on a lie and lied to the people of this country about the reasons for it. It has also chosen to effectively re-nationalise part of the banking industry and is happy for the police to arrest and detain public servants who are trying to go about their job. I'd say these are examples of an extremist Government. IMHO the old left / right political argument is dead. All mainstream politics is now middle of the road with extreme elements dressed up as mainstream to make them more palatable. Any Governement will use a DNA database, but for what purpose, we don't know. Personally i'd be more worried about commercial enterprises using it for their own gain and ones detriment. * i don't mean migrant workers, but immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post-it note Posted 4 December, 2008 Share Posted 4 December, 2008 They should take fingerprints and DNA at birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungle Posted 4 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 December, 2008 people with the views much like bungles crack me up.. they say prisons dont work, yet their type (not you directly bungle) are the sort that bring about the fluffy society some prisons have become... their views are left wing sure, but then moan when we get left wing policies....being involved in your lives, the government running more and more things, red tape, local authorities, is exactly what the left do...and we will see it more and more now brown is in power... here is an idea...how about we simply lock up anyone who gets caught with a gun for 20 years...or 10 years if you have a knife..no questions asked...no chance of getting out early and no fluffy times... i reckon we would soon see a drop in the crime targeted.... I would like to address some of your points: 1) I would hate for you to confuse a left wing ideals with liberal ideals. I fear that in your first paragraphs you have confused the two. 2) What we need to do is actually catch people who are carrying knives, because that is what will deter people from doing it. Labour and the Tories are caught in a battle of posturing over how many years people should get locked up for, each promising more than the other. The reality is that not many people are getting caught, and even less are being penalised to the full extent of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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