Frank's cousin

You really are second to none when it comes to pompous patronizing rhetoric.... 'quite masterful' in fact. If you look at the football we played, objectively, and assess the frailties and quality issues that we have, especially defensively then you have actually made my point for me... the fact we finished one point off top spot is actually remarkable... so yes I still maintain that we over achieved throgh graft, spirit and unity... good principles. And despite what you are assuming, this squad as is would have a struggle in the prem, in which those ine attributes will only get you so far... I dont think anyone would argue with that. If its not added to and NC believes that it will be enough to survive and consolidate, then I believe he would be naive in thinking that way. What can be achieved in 5 years was the question based on high ideals from the chairmans lips - some fan are impressed that we have those high ideals and where happy to debate and discuss the probablity and the resources/growth necessary to meet them... others obviously not. As low as the odds might be, as unrealistic as some suggest it is, what is so wrong with discussing the value in high ideals, or the hyperthetical practicalities of such a 'plan'? please tell me where it states we can only discuss topics that you approve of?

Oh no... someone having a laugh... quick, run away... sorry, but I thought this was a response to NCs comment. What the feck is wrong with discussing mad possibilties... and what would be hyperthetically needed to deliver them? Ultimately, I still think this is about striving to be the best - we fail because of lack of effort and graft - then they need a kicking... we fail because of lack of resources, money, club attractiveness, whatever, then at least we can say we did our very best - same principles in all walks of life. Fact that some get angry or laugh at a discussion... seems a bit churlish to me.

?? I don't get it though - seems folk get really angry over what is a hyperthetical discussion... surely its interesting to look at what would be necessary, financilly, resources and infrastructure to have a hope in hells chnace of ever getting to 4th... and whether there is any remote chance of an alternative or if NC thinks there is, or was just aiming high/naive etc? There are loads of interesting issues here: will the FFP rules have any impact?, what moeny would be needed, do we have that investment, what is NC's strategy, ca the club grow any more, or are we at our peak? Just questions... discussion..?

:lol: Oh stop being such a pompous arse - you completely miss the point once again - I think in your efforst to be Mr Angry Person, you are failing to read and distinguish between posts, posters, words and concepts....yet again... Jeez. It was a five year plan to get back to the prem...with me... half way through the season when we sit top of the pile, he is asked - what should he say...it does not matter we are ahead of the plan? Of course he is going say we want to go up as champions - and I am sure like everyone else he is dissapointed we did not, but on cold reflection, he will have recognised that what the side has done is excellent - Money and investment gives you a chance, but its never been a guarrantee... so in those terms we did fantastically and I will say again, I belive we over achieved - I do not believe that squad was in the top two best sides in the NPC, but we apart from perhaps Reading, we had arguably the very best spirit and AIMING for the top is exactly what we should have been doing. I applaud the dream, the desire, the aspiration and ambition, and I applaud the investment and management that drove it - but this is sport and with no guarrantees, a first season back up, I also applaud what was a great job well done. So NC has suggested he wants champions league.. Well good for him. All I and anyone else has said is that its a great ideal, a great aspiration. This thread has then been mostly about what would be necessary to achive that ... its a fair question and most on here have given their fair response... its a fan forum where thes ethings can be bantered around - until miserable trolls like you turn up with your patronising BS, dismissive anyone who might be ever so slightly daring to dream a little, daring to believe that anything is possible ... especially when NO ONE has any real idea what the Saints future holds... If this sort of topic 'dissappoints' you so much, that the thought of some fans even contemplating discussing pipe dreams annoys you so much...why read it? You are only making yourself angry and look a cock.

See think its all relative - you you started out believing payoffs bound to be a ****er giver that we were top two that we did not hold on for the title - but still over achieved in theory. I thought we'd be about 10th so was totally wrong and naturally delighted, so more forgiving and less tolerant of the slaggong the side got when we lost a game having been in second... Looking at the squad objectively, and the quality and strengths of the other sides - I still think we over achieved - I think the squad has weakness and frailties (quality wise) and lacked a killer instinct at times last season... the difference is, I expected that given the fact we were NPC and arguably not the best in the division. You cant blame a player for not being as good as others - and if they put in a shift, work hard and are comitted, then I aint going to slag them. Over a season, which is the way its got to be judged, cant fault the effort.

Honestly, what as your prediction and expectation at the start of last season?

compared to WHU, Leicester etc + a few others I would argue it is - our wage bil was less than pompeys FFS ... I should have said against our own expectations given the perceived gap in quality and investmnet against some of the pre season favourites

This is very true - but growth IS possible, if there is a product that is attractive enough to more people. A reputation for entertaining brand of football in an environment that is inclusive. Grwoing a fan base is always a long term issue, but its not helped by the uber fans slagging off prem only plastics - get them to go enough times and get their kids hookd... a bit more success and it gets the ball rolling - what our potential is if we had sustained 2002/2003 levels of sucess I dont know, but I would suggest that its a fair bit more than where we are now.

Leave it out. You obviouly miss the point completely. A side that has overachieved and deliveed two promotions in succession with arguably far less investment than many of its competitors, has a great team spirit, and has grafted and entertained, deserves to be cut a little slack when things dont always go to plan. That is completely different to a side that may have been heavily invested in, and is under achieving and thus desrves a kick up its arse. Go back through this thread and show me where I have said anything other - you are just making it up in your usual over agressive, patronising tone - you need to calm down, or get laid or something. Do you actually get enjoyment out of anything in life? You always sound so pathetically angry.

True, I suspect without a huge ticket price hike our revenue next year will be around 65-70mil (with SKY monies and increased commercial rev streams) - still around 50-60mil short of what other clubs have let alone the short fall in spending made up by benefactors or simply much better sponsorship revenues. To suggest with a 70 mil budget we could compete is as ludicrous - as even if by some miracle we had 8 world beaters come out of the Academy in August, we would not have teh financial muscle or pulling power to keep them. But we do not know what comemrcial or investment plans NC has either short term or long term so its impossible to predict what is ultimately possible. Its taken approximately 18-20mil of equity investment to get us up from L1-the prem in two seasons - It would have been possible with less cash invested, but would have taken longer IMHO... so why do it 3 when 5 was the plan and spend extra? Guess the guy is driven and used to delivering... I would love to know what he now plans, and whether he really does believe that we can make the club attractive enough both financially and from a sporting perspective to the developing players to get them to actually play first team before the likes of Arse come running to their favourite academy... because with out them staying for a while at least, or 50-60mil of extra cash injections, we will not realise his 'dreams' - but that brings us back to my earlier point - we should be dreamers as fans - follow the heart and not the head, because otherwise we are really saying 'its the taking part that counts' - and whilst that might be a high sporting ideal... its only ever used by losers and also rans.

I think in part it must be typical sports/business psychology... think big, aim high - you certainly have no chance without belief and a philosophy that you CAN.. be whatever you wnat to be. I dont believe he is that naive that he does not know its impossible without finance, or the luck and long term planning that sees a crop of youngster come good and STAY long enough to have an impact... which in itself requires major finance to offer the greedy scrotes enough wedge to keep them interested. I think he was maybe being more aspirational - its about creating a winning and hungry culture afterall, but he has suroprized most with the astute running of the club to date, I would not be surprized if he he surprizes us again...

Part of teh problem was that Lowe thought it was possible without spending big... er... not with the odd player from the academy it wasn't... Think the problem is, no one knows how serious NC was when he slippe dthat one out, or whether it was a simple platiude. If he was genuinely serious, he was either incredibily naive or he has a stragey none of us know about - with funding to support it. I dont believe MLG is suggesting for one moment that we could be up tehre without serious investment or with enough financila backing to making it worth the best academy players to sticj around a few years and see what happens - but that if NC was serious and is not naive, he must have a strategy... now considering what has been achieved in 3 years - is that because we over achived or because the opposition was worse than expected? - so what is the plan, and what is the financila/ownership situation? we simply dont know, but I doubt NC is thinking of just being an also ran, not his style. Whether he has any reason to believe in better we simply dont know...

Thing is CL revenue only gets to be around 25-30 mil if you get to the final... around 10 mil for those that complete the group phase and do not get through... cant sustain a team on that...

In which case though, when the current contracts at Citeh, and Chelski are up, what will they bedoing if they cant spend 80 mil on a new player?

Well Newcastle released Shearer... trouble is clubs cannot afford to offer long term contracts to players who at 18-20 dont seem to look like making it - and alot will depend on the manager at the time and their attitude to bringing in youngsters - not just the cream, but giving the top 5 or 6 the odd bench and sub-appearance... difficult as there is so much pressure these days... all depends on the coaching as well. Rickie is a great example, but even he has admitted that when he was younger, he was not the ideal professional... so again the way the players are taught about the broader aspects of life, not just football, but how to conduct themselves and what commitment is required toi make in professional sport. I think players who make it when older, such as Lambert suggests that teh gap between those that make it and thos ethat dont is often less about talent, and more about attitude and graft - and the willingness to learn... same could be said about all walks of life though.

You are right of course... I think what NC 'hopes' to be able to try and engineer, is that we get lucky with a crop of youth talent that comes through at roughly the same time... and avoid them being snapped up and moving elsewhere before we get any benefit. No one is under any illusions that the very best will be off eventually, but if we can possibly create a culture and a contracting scenario that a) makes them recognise the value in staying until 21-23 at least, and b) financially; being in a situation where a sale is not necessary, then we have a chance to doing something amazing cyclically - now what that 'amazing' is, will depend on our own expectations - but a top 6 for me would be just that - its usually then down to 2-3 extra wins and CL place... which is where luck comes in. I dont think we will ever be in a position to be consistently top 8, but every 5-6 years we could just surprize a few people - the reason for the optimism? If we gain Category one academy status, we have a huge catchment area compared to many others - if the scouting network is solid, that cyclic crop could see us with an advantage, if only for the odd season in 5 or 6... that would certainly be more than enbough for me.

Correct...but you are being pragmatic and not a dreamer! On a serious note, would be interesting to see a kind of points v spend table over say 10 years of prem... a kind of relative best side - who has over achived most consistenty and see what elarnings there are from sides that have done better than others spending millions more?

Too fricken right - this whole malarky is about dreams, and why let pragmatism and realism get in the way? For years most of you criticised Lowe for NOT building on teh success of 2003 when we finished 8th in the prem and investing to take us on.... now all of a sudden with a better ownership structure, astute leadership with ambition, everyone has about turned and is all serious with 'no chance' - well what the feck, you want it both ways? are you now agreeing with Lowe, that there was no point in investing, we did not need ambition as long as we survived? All I desire is aspiration. Aspiration built on a solid financially stable platform, great team spirit and a group of players who WANT to be here. BIt at the same time, if you have no desire, or dreams about what might be possible (no matter how small teh chance) then why bother? Why spend £600+ a year supporting a side that you happily admit will do well to survive? what's the point? sounds like a waste of money to me. Yes, money is neede dto atract and keep quality - but yu still have to set your standards high and aim for the top, or you may as well go watch those down the road.... and since when has realism ever played a part in supporting your side?

Probably, a reasonable ambition... as others have said, alot will depend on the impact of the financial fair play rules. The problem we have is that there are perhaps 6 cubs in the Premier League that currently have so much financial muscle and that can offer a 'Good' chance of silverwear, that even if we find/develop decent players who are capable of breaking into the top 6, keeping them is alway going to be a problem, simply because of reputation, even if we were abe to afford players on £50k a week, we would not hold on to the best, that constant disruption and losing the best is what keeps the 'nearly' clubs - 'in their place'. What chance Demba Ba or Cisse still being at Newcastle next season if some one comes in with a good offer and champions league football? Its just unfortunately the disadvantage of the so called 'best league in the world' - If we were a Bundesliga club, it might be possible - for some reason young players tend to stay with their first club until 22/23 and you see clubs like Leverkusen (who had a 22k ground capacity when they reached the final), Schalke etc do well cyclically. ...all depends on what kind of 'equity' invetsment remains to be had, and what becomes the 'sustainable' norm wages wise under FFP. That said, aiming to be the very best is never a bad ambition. Aspiration to be the best should not be dismissed with the negative rhetoric, otherwise why bother getting promoted, just to 'take part'? We need to believe that anything is possible with graft, luck and solid financial planning and management. Add a huge does of sporting luck and who knows where it will take us.

I loved teh build up to, but watching buses leave sw anky hotels ...well it was scraping the barrel somewhat in terms of what made facinating viewing?

In a word; Class Mr Fox and Mr Lallana - we salute you! Get well soon Ben! Thanks for posting this to the OP. Too often we see the crappy stories about players, so its nice that the good is given an outing. Makes you proud to be a Saints fan.

Know the feeling, but away games up North for me are easier, Newcastle, Sunderland, The Mancs and Scouse games will feature on the calendar - although they will probably end up being 8pm Mondays....

wWas it only me... or was there actually any real point to watching buses leave hotels and travel 20 miles - how the BBC and ITV used to strat coverage at around 12.... and you would be asleep before kick off!

Ok hooked... Cant defend the disproportionate way in which the votes cast = seats gained between the Tories and Labour, but that's due to the vagaries of the first past the post system, which most of our resistent Tories were vehemently defending during the last years referendum .... the swing vote impact is simply the result of the existing balance in those marginals and seats that ever have a chnace of shifting Left to right or vice versa.... Re the Scotish MPs voting on things that impact on England only - thats simply because Westminster is a UK parliament not an English one - Until you have an English parliament to address English issues, rather than a UK one - that wont chnage - and lets not forget, that on non devolved issues (and for years before devolution) English Tories were always voting on issues that only impacted Scotland (The original Poll tax) - which always played into those SNP w@nkers hands...

Cant say the Wolves fans were all OTT, not as bad as some we have seen... not sure about Jarvis though. Think we will focus on younger players that Nige and the team believe can be improved, so maybe a good option... budget will dictate a few things as well, not sure we will see the kind of spending some are hoping for...