Frank's cousin

Portugal may struggle to get out the group with Germany and Holland in there, probably why his odds are higher than expected given its possible he will only get 3 games. Gomez at 7/1 is stingy... still not matched his Bayern form on the international stage, and Klose is stingy too as likely to only start as sub most games. Think Ronaldo IF portugal get out the group would be a good bet, but its a big ask... Mueller at 25s is not a bad shout, and nor is Benzema at 20s - susupect the French will alot better than predicted, which will make our group tougher....

Why? If NC has the funding is an issue? Sure if its at the expense of the first team, but FFP rules will allow infrastructure development so thats not an issue - and anyway, only thinking about teh current squad and NOT about mid to long term is a recipe for disaster as seen down the road. I am not saying we will suddenly see 15000 extra casual fans suddenly turn up in August, but good planning aligned with a growth strategy suggests that you consider these things in advance of need - whether its cost effective or not given the funding type is another seperate matter.

You make no sense whatsoever... your 'ratio' is illogical, because the only figure that has any sense is the multiple 9k public average wage to 175k for KK - if we assume the current average public wage is 30k, then this would mean KK should be on roughly £590k a year now at that same ratio - approx 11k a week in today's terms yet you and I both know that a KK would now be in the region of 220k a week + a twenty fold increase in relative cost... against normal inflation that you alude to - so to use that as an example of ambition is again flawed. We are talking about potential NOW. You have used the lack of demand in the 80s as a rational for suggesting the demand is not there even when as successful as in the 80s - the two are NOT comparable - the 80s was a time in which a high propostion of potential fans refused to go because of the culture and environment despite teh fact that it was affordable. We have seen that since the mid to late 90s football has been able to clean up its act - in part through legislation and inpart through SKY money that allowed clubs to invest in infrastructure - it created an environment that was more attractive to a wider range of fans - simple and we have seen that in that we averged more in the third tier last year than in L1 in the early 80s! That was a time in which the pay packets betwen clubs were not so different as clubs ALSO recieved 50% of all away games to complement 50% of home receipts - less of a financial gap - the only thing holding a club back was reputation and the manager - gate had relatively little to do with it. Since those rules changes greater emphasis on home gate receipts - so all clubs have needed to look at ways of maxing out the gate - So what do you believe is the CURRENT max we could achieve is welcoming and inclusive to all, clown costumes and all, riding high in the prem? only 20k? 30? 40 for some games? Its also about what its SAYS about the ambition of a club and dont underestimate ego etc in atracting and keeing players. What are some of you so affraid of in speculating about growth? Scared to many families, casual fans and clowns turn up regulary or something?

True.. the point being made now is can we raise fans interests levels further with better football, better services and a potentailly better facilities - can we 'grow' again? fair question being raised and discussed I would have thought...

Nopoe but got Trumpton, Chigley and Camberwick Green for my daughter - as well as Bagpuss, Clangers etc... so had many nostalgia fests - she loved them too!

Good manager, bit of an ego, and did well for us... but always thought he might be off the moment someone bigger came calling - so not sure he would still have been here anyway had he got us promoted - whatever the issue with NC, It was right to terminate, if it was irreconcilable as it would have just festered.

Rush 2112 - interestingy new album out in June, returns to a 'concept album' - single release ' headlong flight ' on you tube sounds good - if heavy prog is your bag.

Brilliant - used to have the Tonka? metal Interceptor toy which fired a plastic rocket - mum said be careful as spmeone could have an eye out.... funnily enough my brother did indeed shoot me in the eye with it and the rocket was confiscated.... oh how we laughed Dont forget Space 1999 - used to have one of those craft too...

True, and if those partizan elements hold back the national side, or get in the way of doing what's right for the England team, then he will have failed... but We all mature, get wiser and without the restrictions/strings to his old employer we maybe should be open minded... I know its not easy, as I used to hate the fecker, bordering on an unhelathy level!

Fair points - and yes you ahve to view the actions in the context of the rules and 'culture' in football versus other sports, but in general dont you find the 'reaction' to players doing this kind of thing a bit OTT? Its not an 'assult' or racist insult, but a roguish prat who was wound up?

You are right, but my thoughts are in respect to the 'moral outrage' at the events on Sunday... not about his overall character and idiocy/thuggery?

'Sunshine' - how old are you? 60? I suspect early 30s, in which case you should have some respect 'son'. As to you using the signing of KK as an indication of ambition, its shows an element of naiviety on your part. Resources in those days were not needed as they are today - he signed on 175k... a year, roughly the same as 18k a week now - things have changed somewhat don't you think? As to ambition, it was easier to attract KK to a club where he could remain the star after Hamburg, alreadu had some good ex internationals and LMs personality would have had a lot to do with it - and it was one player... and we won exactly what in those two years? Yes we played some cracking football, but we were not investing in a long term future... it was a short term vision, (one that was great for 2 seasons) but not part of an overhaul or 'major growth strategy'.... Maybe not by capacity, because demand was not there - you are suggesting that that demand was limited by teh interset in saints ... others including myself have reasoned this demand was limited by teh environment and football culture at the time.... which has been proven as we have had greater average attendences since, despite being in third tier! FACT;)

NOt really when you think about it... we all hate those players who are so partizan when they play, WUMs of teh highest order unless they play for your club. When tehy retire and if they are sensible and no longer toe that same 'party' line, but offer a more balanced and reasonable opinion (helps they are also usually older, more mature), we see a diffrent side to them... Use dto hate him, still dont like him, but mellowing... Same with others like Claridge or the ponce with the blond hair Savage... even that blinkin Welsh **** Bellamy, has shown hes not all bad through his work (mostly unpublicised) in Africa.

He has acted like a prat/idiot on numerous occasions... like we all do, thankfully wthout the spolight of the media trained on us. Whilst you cant condone his behaviour on the pitch, I cant satnd the girly whinging, crying, rolling about these 'med' do. Its pathetic. Its also cheating. had Tevez stood his ground and gone face to face, fair enough. I know many on here like to laugh at the egg chasers, but there you get a ouple of swinging arms, its calmed down and everyone gets on with the game. Can you imgaine that kind of girly antics going on on Rugby field and the stick they would get... Barton, is an unlikelable character, but he nudged a couple of players - and suddenly its outrage....

And your point is? The old 'people are claiming' blahg blah blah and you say I 'ramble' - so what is our potential as one so gifted with foresight? (apologies if your attention span is so limited, suggest you get an ed-due'-kay-shun, and you may be able to follow more than a single sentance without pictures

Still dont think you can use the 80s as a benchmark for potential - the demographic of who attended football then was different as said before. Mostly youth, younger blokes and football stadia were not exactly appealing to the wider public. What is our potential regular attendance if we have a good run in the Pl and play an exciting, entertaining brand of football that gets us noticed and see us flirting with the top 7/8? Depends on Ticket prices, affordability etc, IMHO. Guess would be: L1 - average withe recent feelgood factor - 22k NPC - Average with feelgood factor and success - 26k Prem - positions 20-13 - probably 29-30k Prem top 13-9 - probably 30-31k Prem top 8 regularly ? - 32-36k - possibly up to 40k for 'big games' Basis for assumptions? Think we probably have over 60k who have been to one or more games - special occasions etc (not sure of teh exact number on the database, but this is misleading anyway as it only includes those who have purchased tickets themselves, not who have gone), we saw we could sell 45k+ and more for the tin pot. Its all about how you tap into that market - how do you get those extra 15k to not go to one game a year, but to 8 or 9 or even an ST? To dismiss the the potential based on 80s gates is flawed. Funnily enough, you can increase/make a market by offering a product that is more appealing and good value for money - some may hate the idea, believing football should not be about attracting casual fans, but about committed regulars, but growth is only possible if these casual fans are hooked and converted, especially with younger kids. So the environment plays a big part as well as the quality on the pitch. Once again, we have NO idea what NC has in mind, short, medium or long term, nor do we have a clue on whether there is any cash investment available form the Estate to fund infrastructure or performance/quality on the pitch. So its all speculation. But two points: 1. What the feck is wrong with speculation? Why the need for insult and wind up/**** take? Its just a fricken discussion, like many would have down the pub over a few beers, but some on here seem to act in a way that would get them a slap if they carried on like that over a beer... 2. We do know NC is ambitious - he is not used to being an alaso ran, and I dont believe he will be satisfied with mediocrity and survival battles mid to long term. So he MUST have a plan for growth IMHO. That plan may be staged (low to moderate risk) , or it may be an agressive strategy (with higher risk), I dont and no one on here knows. At the core of that plan will be funding to ensure both on the field success through appropriate and decent wage structure to hang on to talent supplemented by purchased quality. That will involve an array of potential commercial approaches, and it may involve the future expansion of capacity to realise the potentail attendences that come with success. I dont believe NC will make a decsion on capacity increase basd on previous attendance records - it may be a factor, but the biggest will be cost per seat and the investment needed - can it be commercially viable if it meant we were averaging say 75% capacity. I just find it odd that some on here are so negative, patronizing and short sighted, over what should be a positive discussion over ambition and future growth potential. If you dont agree we have that potential or funding and it can not be comercially viable, fine, but the need for ridicule? FFS. I suspect that NC may blind side us all yet - will be looking for innovation - he has shown he is not affraid to challenge the percieved 'norms' of football club stewardship and it would not surprize me if his strategy is something none of us have considered as viable or even thought about. To me that should be exciting... not an area of ridicule.

Chanrai has stated he will not let the club be liquidated... think he will step in at last minute and string this out - get a CVA that starts in 2017 by which time he will have the Parachute 14 mil to pay himself off as a secured creditor.... and sold the club and remaining debt for £1... possible?

Why? Its different and shows how great that song really is - the very best music and lyrics always work in any style... well almost, but this song does work in an acoustic style... not the best interpretation of the classic, but not hideous and I say that as someone who has the original single!

Good article, thanks for spotting and posting the link... I guess it depends on the perspective though - should football have remained the 'property' of the loyal fans who go week in week out, or has the sky era made it more accessable to the masses in their armchairs? - the overpaid prima donnas is ultimately a sdirect result of the sky money, but that has only been available because of the demand of the TV fan. We can all balme Murdoch, but he in a way just gave the punters at home what they wanted. For me the problem was/is not the extra cash that suddenly flooded the the game, but the distribution of it. The PL were more obsessed with their brand that they forgot to put in place appropriate sporting safeguards that would not only ensure a more competitive league, but safeguard the groundroots and the national game (which they said was their main reason for the break away... yeah right). They could have ensured that more cash was better distributed. If each of the relagated clubs was not promoted and just took the parachute payments that could total as much as £128 is spent in parachutes , why could that not be more equally divided amongst all NPC teams? Wage caps, a max of 25mil per club per year in the prem from sky etc then the NPC clubs could get around 12-13mil + L1 say 5mil etc and so on... would have kept the gap beteen old top flight and the next tiers more equal - and prevented alot of the mad panic spending and financial ruin that many clubs try to save their prem position... and the ownership rules should have sorted long before the need for FFP - but a wage cap would have allowed rich owners to build infratructure, without 'buying' silverware. The wage cap would also mean, more clubs could have held on to tehir own talen - at least for a little longer and sen seen some benefit on the pitch, not just in off setting teh excessive wage costs of teh palyers that remain.... Oh wel, lets see what happens, but whilst its excellent to be part of the top flight from a status and sporting perspective, I cant get over the fact that without 50-100mil extra revenue per year on top of the sky millions, we will not be able to have a go at winning that hideously ugly cheap looking trophy...

Never said it would happen, just what they should!

I think it depends on whether any new owner actually offers a CVA... they do not have to, then can in effect liquidate the old co and set up a new co with a transfered Golden share as happened last time... just emans more points deductions and big ones if they in effect exit admin without a CVA, which they might as well do as they never seem to have any intention of paying the fecker in the first place. Seriously though, the administrator merely forwards the offer in effect based on what the potential new owner says he will do... so at present Birch can do feck all. I seriously think the best approach would be someone decent and honest buys it for a quid who has enough cash to settle the footballing debts and pay off the charities... then INSTANTLY begins a 10 year debt repayment plan to cover the full current CVA and try and agree a reasonable amount for new creditors and start payments now - to rebuild some credibilty and self respect... the 14 mil parrachutes could the make a huge contribution and they try to start again... but in L1/L2 - get the debt cleared the proper way... It could be done if the high earners can be sold for a £1 each to get the wage bill down now... holding out for what they are 'worth' is just increasing teh footballing debt to the detriment of the non-secured creditors...

I'll bite, but Adriansfc already answered youe 'question'... the 'liberal elite' will consist people with the full spectrum of attitude towards marriage, from 'dont care for it as I want to **** anything that moves', to the staunchly married because the church says its right.... being supportive of gay marriage? Matriage has feck all to do with it, its being supportive of equal rights for all... very simple Turkish, and you know it, another classic, lets wind up and get a few bites...

There as nothing disrespectful to the 96 or their families in Buct's post, he was making a fair and reasoned point as controvercial as it may appear.

In some respects i have to agree with Buctootim -I find it very strange that the two tragic incidences seem so disproportionately covered - but you can see why - Heysal was football fans charging at the opposition and this directly leading to the death of innocnet people, but do Liverpool people seek the same 'justice' for those victims? Why are their no flames and a 35 next to the 96? I know ist controversial, but too often folk are frightened to say what is a sad truth. At Hillsborough, the police made series of tragic errors that given the way the stand was constructed and the cages led to the death of 96 people. But for me the question that many seem unwilling to pose was WHY were the police in that situation in the first place? Why did tehy panic and make the wrong decsions? Because ultimately, they had no idea how a large crowd of football fans desperate to get in would behave if they did not open those gates - and based on how at the time football fans had a strong reputation for things getting ugly, you could argue that it was the underlying culture of the time that was also to blame - has anyone in Liverpool ever acknowledged that? The victims were innocent, and tehir families have a right to know exactly what happened and what was he cause and blame, but maybe its just me that thinks that in the long efforts to push for a thorough investigation and understanding of what the poilice decsions were that led to teh tragedy, they have forgotten to ask that simpel question... if fans behaved as normal rational human beings, queing patiently and waiting their turn, not only would a police prescence of that nature have been unnecessary, but it certainly would not have led to panic decisions... as painful as that might be, I have not yet heard any argument that absolves fan behaviour (either on the day, or as a result of reputation from numerous previous incidents) from at least contributing to the sequence of events that led to that tragedy.

have to admit that the fact that the 96 are still on the shirt - and yet you have these groups taking about insensity is somewhat strange... after all these years, teh fact they will be remembered is surely enough... time to move on?