sydney_saint

We currently have a single player in our squad capable of scoring on a regular basis and it looks like he is leaving this Summer. I think it would be incredibly dumb not to renew Bertrands contract when we have such a vital area of the squad to rebuild, and probably the most expensive as well. Letting Bertrand go would probably require 10m+ to get a replacement that is better. 10m that could be spent in much better areas. No brainer for me, renew.

Agree with this completely. I never once questioned Fox's commitment or him trying to get better. He just wasn't good enough. Same with Hooiveld. He tried, but was never going to be an EPL player.

Yeo completely agree. Another thing to note is that his better games recently was the Wolves double header. When KWP was on the pitch. Maybe it's coincidence or maybe it is related. But it is plausible that he isn't getting so far forward because we don't have an adequate back up right back.

That's really not true. In the last few games he has still managed to set up the Minamino goal, throw in a cross against Wolves that Armstrong should have scored and for all intents and purposes got the assist for Ings goal in the FA Cup. He has also played quite a few cute balls into the box that with some more in form players could have resulted in goals. Has he slowed down? Signs look like yes. Is he getting enough into forward places. No. But when he does, the one thing he does get right alot of the time is the ball into the box. In fact, right now he is probably our best player in getting dangerous balls in with the exception of JWP set pieces. Armstrong is closest, but he is better at making space, taking players on and firing the shot himself.

He is not good enough. This isn't a nipper with room to improve, this is a (nearly) 27 year old with over 200 EPL appearances. This is him. If you take a look at our key forward players over the last five years, his output is comparatively terrible Redmond- 11,841'- 19 goals, 13 assists Armstrong- 4,886'- 11 goals, 8 assists Che Adams - 3,020'- 8 goals, 7 assists Danny Ings - 6,158' - 37 goals, 8 assists Shane Long - 9,339' - 27 goals, 20 assists Djenepo- 1,963' - 3 goals, 2 assists Tadic- 9,617'- 21 goals, 30 assists Charlie Auston- 3,157'- 16 goals, 3 assists Gabbiadini- 2,271'- 10 goals, 0 assists Obafemi- 813'- 4 goals, 3 assists Boufal - 3,072' - 3 goals, 4 assists He has one of the worst goals and assists ratios out of all of them, and miles behind alot of them. No player has had more chances in our side than Redmond. And whilst I know football is more than goals and assists, we also know it is hardly like Redmond is cutting teams open and causing havoc and creating chances. Yes he had a purple patch once before. But if you give most Championship players 150+ appearances in the Premier League they too will have a purple patch at some stage. I'm not even convinced he works that hard. In the first half against Leeds for example, there were two opportunities in 5 minutes to put them under serious pressure. One where the ball was bobbing around in their box. Did he a) sprint and chase them down to force a mistake or b) amble towards him and allow them to clear easily. A few minutes later he didn't close down in middle of pitch and Vestegaard ended up getting booked. Compare that with the fight and desire from Djenepo. Yeah we are all still not sure if Djenepo will be good enough, but there is no doubt the kid is putting his heart into everything. Watch Tella sprint across to close down players. What annoys me most though is that redmond didn't earn his way back into the side. He was injured for a few games and then appeared back in the starting line up despite doing very little from the bench (apart from scoring a third against a shit Sheffield United side with the game wrapped up). If he wants to start games, make him earn it.

So why do we need refs fronting up in front of the media for that to happen? It's actually quite a different point you are making. But that is happening right now. You think refs spend the week sitting around in their pants? The education and guidance they are getting is unacceptable, but that starts from the top. Which is what needs to change. You can have the change in education and interpretations without the need to start creating a further environment of stress and harassments for refs.

But how does this improve things??? I keep asking that and you keep avoiding it. You don't see umpires fronting up to the media. You don't see rugby refs doing it. Heck, you don't see higher standard football refs in other countries doing it. I'm in complete agreement that the education over handball is a shambles. But that has largely come from the top. Which I am in massive favour of changing. But sacking refs, most of which are the best of a shocking bunch, doesn't help things in the short term. Cos we will only get even worse refs out of their depth. And in the medium and long run will only cause damage to the pipeline and future talent. A new person at the top can quickly determine which refs are passed their sell by date (Mason, Dean etc) and then focus on getting more consistency.

But you still aren't showing how this will improve things. It's the equivalent of when a team is in a bad run of form and fans say 'sack the players, play the kids instead'. And then the kids do get played and then it becomes 'the kids are not good enough, they will never make it, why are we playing the kids'. Well duh. What you are suggesting is we start sacking refs, start promoting even worse refs, who will make mistakes, get sacked, so we promote even worse refs, who will make even more mistakes, who will get sacked...and that will do wonders to keep refs in refereeing.... I mentioned very clearly I think there are some refs that need to go immediately. But by and large, the current cohort are probably the best we have got, even if they are not good enough, and we have to make do with a bad situation. Mike Riley needs replacing and get someone in who understands football and at least get more consistency. In the same way teams replace the manager rather than sack the players. But most importantly we need to focus on improving the pipeline and retention.

But what are you trying to acheive here? What's the outcome you want? What does 'held accountable' look like in practice? Do you want the refs fined? Demoted? Sacked? Because none of that solves this mess. There are small handful of refs that should go immediately. Lee Mason, Mike Dean, imo Kevin Friend. They are either so inept or corrupt and do the game no good. But it's not like there is a generation of talented amazing super refs ready to take over from the Championship. Believe it or not, standards can drop even from here, and that is what most likely will happen if they all suddenly start getting promotions. And fronting out the refs in front of the media isn't going to make this cohort of refs world class, just like chucking Nathan Redmond in the Man City side won't make him suddenly world class. The person who should be held accountable for inconsistent refereeing interpretations is Mike Riley. He should have to explain this. Because I think most of the refs are confused themselves.

Firstly, players are treated differently in football and held in a different regard. They are often either heros or villains and that can change on a weekly basis. It's easy for Dunk to get in front of the cameras, but what about one of the muppets who couldn't hit the target from 12 yards? Or when Lookman did his daft chip down the middle, was he shepherded in front of the cameras straight away to face the media scrutiny. Unlike players, the refs are either the villain or not noticed. They don't have that positive counter balance where they are lauded. Sure, take them in front of the cameras if they have a good game, give them a bottle of champagne and sing their name from the stands. But it won't happen like that. They will only be asked to face the media when there is little positive. I can assure you it will have detrimental impact on refereeing standards. I bet at grassroots the players, coaches, parents etc will then feel they can do the same to young ref who did their game. We need to get down to the structural problems of why refereeing standards are dropping. Why are talented refs dropping out so early. It's not enough to say 'you need to be thick skinned' to be a ref, cos that approach has clearly failed and is seeing standards drop. We need to eliminate abuse at the grassroots level. I remember in one of my first games. I was 15. I was referring under 9s division 5 or something like that. And yet one of the 'men' and I mean that in the loosest sense possible, was gobbing off to me all fucking game. That happens regularly and is not okay. And whilst you may think refs are this protected species, I can tell you now they are not at grassroots. It's a pretty lonely place. I can also bet that the people harassing and abusing refs at grassroots levels are also bemoaning the refereeing standard in the EPL, without realising the two are linked. Basically the only refs who stay on are either egotisitical maniacs who want the game to be about them and so don't give a shit about the abuse (see Mike Dean) or are so dumb and inept that they barely notice it either (see Mason). Those that are talented, love football and have a feel for the game by and large quit, with Michael Oliver just about the only exception to that. We need to that change but we need to do things properly

Thanks for your reasoned debate.

Honestly this is just dumb. What do you mean 'god forbid you criticise them'. That's all that happens to refs! Refs are constantly abused, insulted, crowded around, sworn at. This idea that refs should front the media and take further abuse will only exacerbate problems. It would be a show trial by media. Do we hound at a player and make them front the media if they miss a 1v1? We already have a major issue in retaining refs. Adding an even further level of stress and ultimately harrasment which will only mean we are left we even shitter refs. Refs will be like fuck this, it isn't worth it. This does not include Mike Riley. He should absolutely be fronting the media to explain what the fuck is going on.

I totally agree with this. Our attacking play is far too one dimensional. It is not fashionable for most sides to go down the outsides and whip a ball in, yet I feel it is when we are at our most dangerous. We scored against Wolves doing that, and those times when Bertand gets to the line and whips in across often causes havoc. Again Bertrand set up Armstrong the other day who totally fluffed his lines. But we don't use this anywhere near as much as we should. Redmond is the biggest culprit of this, but plenty of others are as well, particularly our forward players. Only Bertrand is hitting the line regularly and he doesn't have the legs to do it constantly all game

For the first time I am starting to crack just a little bit. We haven't looked like scoring pretty much since Arsenal went to 10 men. The odd set piece or moments of magic here and there, but in terms of regularly carving out good goal scoring opportunities it just isn't there. Okay it's been an exhausting season and a few of the players are burnt out. But we should be doing better than this.

Usually the ref will signal to the player to wait for the whistle.

I think this as well sadly. Tella showing Redmond how to play football this half. It's embarrassing that Redmond is still in the first XI. I'm not even convinced he works that hard. There was a moment around the 25th minute where the ball bobbled in their box and he lightly jogged towards it. Two minutes later in the middle of the pitch he gentled dropped back again and Vestegaard ended up getting booked. Compare that to Tella who is racing back to help, or Djenepo on Saturday doing everything for the team. Redmond is more likely to throw his hands up in frustation. I posted this before, and you can add an assist and a few more minutes, but Redmonds output for us has been gash> If ain't even as working as hard as others then what on earth is he doing out there. Redmond- 11,515 EPL minutes for us- 19 goals, 12 assists Armstrong-4,627 EPL minutes for us-11 goals, 7 assists Shane Long- 9,339 EPL minutes for us - 27 goals, 20 assists Tadic- 9, 617 EPL minutes- 21 goals, 30 assists Djenepo - 1, 735' EPL minutes-3 goals, 2 assists Che Adams - 2, 827' - EPL minutes - 8 goals, 7 assists. Boufal - 3, 072' EPL minutes - 3 goals 2 assists On Romeu, that is one of the biggest dick tackles I have seen.

It's not a penalty. Unless Rashford is on the back of the shirt. Then it's a penalty and a red card

Djenepo better have a niggle. Cos after putting it all on the line to help us get a point, it would send completely the wrong message to then drop him.

Yep agree with that you know very quickly what sort of game to get. I'm not sure if you found it this as well, but I always found that it was easier to position when refereeing better matches. I remember one of the first matches I ever refereed was the over 35s Division 10. A bunch of overweight beer guzzling jokers, which for all the joking was probably the highest number of X rated tackles I've seen in a game. I was totally out of breath 30 minutes in trying to follow wherever they had they decided to lump that ball! Some of those 'passes' defied physics. A higher level games moves alot of faster. But also moves tactically

I refereed to a reasonable level so I can help here. One thing to note is that a referee's positioning should already compensate for the lack of assistants in those two quadrants of the pitch. It is ten years since I quit, but I can't imagine the guidelines have changed all that much. Your general positioning as a ref is to run diagonally corner to corner from each side with no assistant. That means for each incident you should be covering one side of incident and the relevant assistant the other. For example, if the ball is booted down the end with the assistant, you will be positioned more centrally, covering one angle, whilst the assistant covers a completely differently one. You kinda box in the incident if that makes sense. If it is booted down the end without the assistant, you move alot closer in, with one assistant looking down the line at the incident whilst the other one is looking straight across the pitch. You can then adjust to make sure your angle is unique to the two assistants. Providing you are both fit and smart, you can cover a surprising number of angles between the three of you, and my gut is adding in two more is too many cooks. I also expect the referees analyse matches plenty to know roughly where to stand. We certainly did so I expect they are too. If you are playing a side that boots it into the Channel, you ain't going to get sucked too far down the pitch. If you are reffing a side that tries to play their way out and draw opposition in, aka us, you are going to make sure you get down that end of the play. I don't doubt whether the EPL refs do alot of analysis and their positioning is smart. I do wonder about the fitness side. Cos like a player, no matter how smart and intelligent your positioning is, at some point you are going to need to peg it. When I was reffing I was about the same pace and fitness as alot of the players. And I simply can't imagine reffing even that level in my 50s. Let alone trying to referee premier league! I know they have to pass fitness tests, but I also wonder if they haven't made them as tough as they probably should because, well, they wouldn't have enough refs.

I wasn't that keen on Minamino today. Yes he walked away with the goal, but I didn't feel like he was fighting for the team. Compare that to Djenepo who would love a goal, but instead threw his brittle body at everything. Minamino will probably get more headlines, but it was Djenepo who showed real guts today. Rest of the team were good. I think JWP and Romeu did okay. That Chelsea midfield is very strong and whilst their passing was off today and didn't connect many tackles, they did well to cut off passing lanes and give defence protection. Salisu looks a hell of a player. Him and Vest have to start now. Whilst it may seem harsh on Bednarek, this is how we want things. We want players playing their way into the first team. In too many positions players go from the bench to first XI because the person in the first XI is out of form, not because the bench player fought their way back.

Amazing that for the Werner, Kante, Alonso and Jorginho tackles all on Djenepo that Chelsea only walk away with a single booking.

To be honest, I would be livid if we did either of those challenges and got a red for it. But let's be honest, we probably would have got a red for it. Werner should have been booked mind you. The Kante one, well, it's the risk you take for putting in a great tackle like that. And fair play to Djenepo, he's made of glass but he is putting in a shift even though I, and probably him, have no idea what position he's playing. Can't remember when we put in a real backs to the wall half like that. Even IF we lose this, maybe this can be a template on how to see out games once we are ahead. Chelsea are very good so I can't blame the lads if we lose it. When Kante plays like this there is only so much you can do.

Lol we just did to Chelsea what so many sides have done to us.

I think that is most likely just really outdated. Football has moved on since the days where a Nobby Stiles tears into a bunch of other England working class lads and rouses them up. Footballers now have more money and fame than they know what to do with. They are kept mostly in cotton wool and are pretty insulated and protected. I'm definitely not saying that's a good thing, but it's just a reality whether it is our club or another. Someone tearing into them and getting physical will most like just get isolated themselves as the rest of the players just close ranks. I'm sure footballers still say some tough words to one another on occasion, but I doubt anyone is really ripping their heads off.