Sheaf Saint

Wonderful. Every vote for Reform in the GE is a wasted vote that just reduces the Tories' chances of defeating Lab/Lib Dem.

Crushing defeats for the Tories in the Tamworth and Mid Bedfordshire by-elections yesterday (the latter has been held by them since 1931!) Tick tock.

Sorry but I have to pick you up on this. That's actually the correct and respectful way to pronounce it.

And I'm still not going to answer that because it's a stupid question. You know full well that's not what I meant when I used the word compromise. Hamas may desire the eradication of Israel, but Netenyahu has openly said he wants to turn Gaza into a deserted pile of rubble. How is that any less sinister than what Hamas want?

I'm not saying they shouldn't do that. But there must be better ways of achieving it that don't result in the near destruction of Gaza city.

I'm not so naive as to believe that would instantly solve all the problems and end the attacks, but in line with what I said previously, it would go some way towards weakening support for Hamas. This isn't going to be solved overnight. If their response to every Hamas attack is to wade in heavy handed, not caring how much collateral damage they cause in the process, the cycle of hatred will never end. It's a fucked up mess of a situation and I dont presume to have all the answers. But doing the same thing over and over and expecting things to change is insanity.

That's an absurd generalisation. Hamas does not represent all of Palestine. The kind of compromise I'm talking about is, say, ending their illegal occupation of the West Bank. As long as they stick rigidly to their current policies, there is no chance of any compromise from Hamas. I'm not saying that's right, but if you want them to back down from their current stance then there has to be some sort of reciprocation. You can't possibly expect them to back down if the other side just continues with the status quo.

So the onus to compromise is all on Hamas is it? None whatsoever on Israel?

Extremist organisations like Hamas need continuing injustice in order to recruit new members. If the vast majority of Palestinians were living freely in an independent state, free from Israeli occupation and oppression, then Hamas will find their recruitment much more difficult and over time their power and influence will become a lot more limited. It would take time to achieve, but ultimately would be worthwhile. Taking the quicker and easier option of just carpet bombing Gaza and continuing to occupy the West Bank will only have the opposite effect.

Coming back to the point I made to Whelk in a previous post, it's not a simple binary choice between what they are currently doing or 'nothing'. There are a whole range of options in between those extremes. I'm not going to start suggesting exactly what they should have done, because I'm not a military strategist, but I do believe that the destruction they have rained down on Gaza so far is way too excessive.

But they're not preventing it from happening again though. Their current actions are just perpetuating the cycle of hatred and violence, and breeding a whole new generation of Hamas supporters who will want to take revenge at some point in the future.

"Israel must have the right to defend itself". While I dont disagree with that statement, it doesn't really describe the situation does it. if someone tries to attack me in the street, blocking his punches and putting him on his arse is self-defence, burning down his house and murdering his family is not.

Interesting hearing the IDF spokesman saying that other countries are "looking carefully at what the BBC says" when asked why people should believe their claim about the misfired rocket causing the hospital blast. I can't find a link, but I remember many years ago reading a very frank interview with someone who worked in the BBC newsroom for many years. He recalled how every single time they printed a story about the Israel-Palestine conflict they would immediately get a call from irate Israeli government officials complaining that the language used was misleading and demanding that they alter it to portray them more favourably. They would then inevitably get a call from the director's office with strict instructions on the exact changes to the text that they required. He showed a couple of examples, where a very balanced article had been heavily edited to show the Palestinians as being the perpetrators and Israel as the innocent victims. It was pretty shocking, and highlighted how much power the Israeli foreign office has over Western media. To counter this though, I will also add that Hamas have also been caught out faking videos of people being injured in Israeli attacks in the past (Google 'Pallywood' to see for yourself), so both sides are guilty of manipulating the media for their own benefit.

That second half from England was as good a performance as I have seen in a very long time. I'm actually looking forward to the Euros now.

Lovely goal. Great work from Bellingham and a sweet finish from Rashford.

Will be interesting to hear what sort of response we get from Westminster about this. How far do Israel have to go before the government (and opposition) start calling them out?

He hasn't got a point. It's an idiotic, childish post, sarcastically ridiculing an opinion that literally nobody on this thread actually holds. As for the Brussels incident, the guy filmed himself after the attack claiming to be from IS but made no mention whatsoever of Israel, which you would think he probably would have done if his actions were in response to the current situation. Just as likely he's just a lone wolf, loose on the streets of Belgium illegally who has been planning something like this for some time. I guess we'll never know though.

Shouty wankers in the gym changing room who insist on having loud phone conversations on speaker while they're getting changed.

Only yesterday you said you don't think you are really as black and white with this as I was making out. I have to tell you that you're not really doing a very good job of convincing me of that. You appear to be firmly entrenching yourself on the side of Israel, while making false accusations against those pointing out the nuances of the situation of 'siding' with Hamas. Nobody is saying they should have done nothing. If you think that either 'nothing' or 'flattening Gaza' were the only two options available to them then that just further demonstrates your polarised viewpoint on things.

There was plenty of discussion on here about Syria while it was making headline news. And even if there wasnt, this post is pure whataboutery. I thought you were better than this Whelk.

Yeah I'd agree with all of this. I don't believe for a second that he himself is antisemitic; the support he has shown to Jewish communities over many decades disproves that IMO. But he has shown extreme naivety in a) cosying up too much to Hamas and b) failing to recognise the antisemitism that was flourishing in his party under the guise of support for Palestine.

While you've planted your flag firmly on the other side of the fence and seem unwilling to accept that it is not a simple black and white situation. For clarity, I have a lot of sympathy for the innocent Israeli people who have been killed or injured by terrorist actions from Hamas, while I also have sympathy for the great many more Palestinian civilians (see my previous post) who have suffered at the hands of Israeli occupation. You were the one claiming there is no equivalence in this scenario, and you're right, there isn't.

I've had this sent to me in a WhatsApp group - it's from a friend's other half who is Jewish... "Having visited Palestine twice and seen the reality of life under occupation and experiencing an unprovoked teargas attack by Israeli military in a peaceful civilian area I feel outraged by the sanctioning of what amounts to genocide by the governments of the UK and US and the biased reporting by much of the media. I’m sending this to all my contacts. If you want to talk about it feel free to get in touch. If you are able to share please do so. My friends in a refugee camp near Bethlehem have told me they too have had water, electricity and food supplies cut off. They are not in Gaza. They are just Palestinians. (JVP = Jewish Voice for Peace.)"

Well to bring it back to the thread topic... When I'm channel hopping in the evening and see that Jaws is on, and knowing that I'm gonna be knackered in the morning because I can't not sit and watch it all the way through to "Smile you son of a bitch".

Netanyahu has visited the massed troops (including reservists) on the Gaza border and was heard to ask them "are you ready for the next phase?" The ground assault is imminent.