hypochondriac

Cheers. The person I was looking for isn't eligible yet but they must be soon.

Cheers I'll have a look.

What's the online booking system?

No I said that many member states were in a position to sign an Oxford agreement months before they actually did but the EU commission persuaded them not to do so. That is what has caused the majority of the present issues. The efficacy of the French jabs wouldn't really have mattered had they sorted out their supply chain issues for the Oxford jab so that they were receiving their doses from their own supply chains at a similar rate to Britain.

As I already pointed out to you (and as shown in the incredibly detailed politico article I linked above.), the approval of the vaccine is not what is causing the issue, it is that the EU commission insisted on stepping in and delaying negotiations for two months which meant that supply chain problems had less time to be resolved. Had the EU approved the vaccine at the same time as the UK, they would still be facing the exact same supply chain problems that they are now. Germany and Hungary have not secured nearly enough of alternative vaccines and they have only done so after it became clear that the EUs own scheme was woefully inadequate and its why both countries are miles behind others in terms of their vaccine rollout. The UK would be in a similar position had they joined the EU scheme (which they obviously would have done had they still been in the EU.

Yes I agree. Hopefully if there's another crisis of this magnitude, EU member states will recognise the value of being an independent sovereign nation. Let's hope so.

I don't see how it would have been. The EU was much slower to negotiate because it insisted on controlling things and because it prioritised cost and legal details at a time when speed and amount of vaccine was what should have been prioritised. It was the EU commission that insisted on negotiating on behalf of all the member states. Had Britain been a member still they wouldn't have had any impact on the negotiations because they wouldn't have been involved in them. Even if they had managed to get more vaccine, it would have been shared out across the whole block and they would undoubtedly have received much less at a far later date as a consequence. It's easy to talk of noble and lofty goals about donating all our vaccine and sharing it out to others but personally I'd take a bit of so called nationalism if it gets my older relatives and friends with underlying conditions vaccinated and safer a few months sooner. Also if it allows us to go and socialise again sooner too. The main benefit of this unedifying episode is that it's highlighted the folly of giant beauracratic super-states in an emergency (once again after the ppe fiasco from earlier in the crisis) and shown why many thought that Britain was better off out of it.

So it wasn't incorrect for me to state that the EU commission stepping in and slowing everything down hasn't slowed vaccine procurement down in a number of EU countries? The rest of your post I agree with. The fact that the EU countries would have taken the view about it being untenable just underlines why we wouldn't have gone alone had we still been part of the EU. Individual countries looking out for their own interests, able to create deals tailored to their own individual circumstances and able to move quickly in this instance is demonstrably a superior thing here.

Be honest. If Britain had still been in the EU then its incredibly likely that they would have joined with the likes of Germany, France, Italy, Spain etc in this scheme. To suggest otherwise makes you look like one of those FBPE people on twitter. It's clearly fortunate from a brexiteer point of view that this has happened but I'd much rather there was enough vaccine for everyone at this point then it wouldn't be an issue.

Here's the (excellent) article I was referring to which lays it all out. The "inclusive vaccine alliance" had an agreement for the Oxford vaccine prior to the commission getting involved and they were persuaded to give up their head start to allow the commission to negotiate for the whole EU instead: https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/amp/ "EU27 health ministers signed off on a Commission plan to buy on their behalf on June 12. But the Franco-German initiative continued to press forward, having invited the Netherlands and Italy to join their buyers’ club. On June 13, the quartet — known as the “Inclusive Vaccine Alliance” — announced a deal for between 300 million and 400 million doses of the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab." So as I said, some of the big EU countries had secured hundreds of millions of doses in mid June. Then the EU commission got involved and they didn't secure any agreements until two months later. Those two months have clearly been key as the UK have been able to iron out kinks in their supply chain earlier than the EU have been able to.

Are you saying that individual member states would have been unable to sign deals for the Oxford vaccine prior to the EU commission's deal three months after the UK? Because that's what member states have said. There was a really thorough article about it that I can't find at the moment. The spectator has alluded to it here: https://youtu.be/CT-HxrfC4Wc

Rules for thee but not for me. Are the EU 27 really all in it together?

So if that's the case, why are Germany and Hungary so behind with the vaccination rates and why is the EU commission so clearly in such a state of desparate panic?

Hi Fan the Flames. Your definition of screeching is unusual to say the least. What's your thoughts on this action taken by the EU commission? It's interesting that some who supported remain like whelk can clearly see that brexit has had a clear and demonstrable benefit and that this has been an absolute disaster for the commission. Its quote telling those who can't admit what is staring them in the face.

Wow this EU commission must be feeling really nervous about their chances at the next election. I bet the electorate can't wait to vote them out of office for doing such an awful job... Oh.

No that's not the issue. We agreed our contract with the companies in May which was three months before the EU commission agreed theirs. There were other European companies ready to agree at a similar time to us but the European Commission stepped in, extended the period of negotiations by months without adding much of substance and told all European companies not to do their own deals for vaccines. As a consequence, we were able to iron out kinks in our supply chain and manufacturing at an earlier point than the EU and therefore we have more vaccine available now. Had we been part of the EU procurement we would have allowed the commission to negotiate on our behalf and slowed down the entire process which would have resulted in us being in a similar situation to France or Germany now.

Surely there's an important distinction here between what the UK would be legally allowed to do if brexit did not exist and what they would have done in reality? Surely no one is seriously suggesting they would have gone it alone if the rest of the EU were instructed to act together?

Agreed. Either that or just set up vaccination centres in the North and invite the Irish to walk over the border and claim them. Would be a genius move but sadly I don't think they will. Regardless of whether anyone is pro brexit or not, I think everyone can agree that the EU under the leadership of VDL is an absolute shambles. They messed this vaccine procurement up ridiculously and have managed to turn the majority of the chattering class against then with this decision as well as undermine the careful narrative they've tried to construct for the past four years over NI. As many suspected, they only ever cared about Ireland when it suited them for negotiations and will quite happily throw them under the bus if they think it's beneficial.

Poorly is an understatement. It's a unique achievement to get so much agreement from so many. Let's not also pretend that the reaction would be on a different scale were the shoe on the other foot.

Could you imagine the screeching we would be hearing if Britain had tried to pull what the EU is doing in NI?

Since he was busted as being a children's toy company employee and his real life name leaked, he ran off.

Dune I think.

I also checked out the way back machine for the lols. You can't see much but some of the captions brought back some memories.

LOL it's been like that forever. Do you not remember the takeover saga threads?

And Dave Benson Philips.