CanadaSaint

Lallana really is abysmal defensively.

Even though Shaw is likely to be a little raw and even a touch overawed for a while, the inability/unwillingness of a wide midfielder to track back magnifies the importance of a defender on that side who can get back quickly. This is where Shaw has a clear edge over Fox, who IMO has been playing better since he was dropped. Swansea will definitely throw some pace at us down that flank, with Dyer, so I can certainly see NA making the change.

I initially had the same concern but not any more. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Gazzaniga is handling the pressure of life at the bottom - and behind a creaky defence - better than either of the other two; his in-game demeanour seems impressively level. The water bottle incident doesn't exactly suggest that Boruc, for all his experience, has the necessary bottle ('scuse the pun) for the challenge.

There was the horrendous giveaway that left Clyne stranded and paved the way for the fast-break - and killer - second goal. I still don't see how he and Schneiderlin can play in the same midfield, but perhaps that's just me. I thought he was captain material at one point but now I don't think he's even worth his place.

I'm with pingwing. I've watched the game a second time and confirmed my first-time view that if we traded one player - Mulumbu for Davis - we would have won. I know that's all rather simplistic but it suggests that we're really not that far away from being competitive in this division.

Excellent post, LTC. And Alpine, for the love of God find another interest. You're an embarrassment to others who don't live in the country any more but still love this club and are willing to ride the rollercoaster without pitiful, endless whining.

After today's games, here's the latest Likely Strugglers Table: (Points Per Game Targets: vs Elite 4 - Home 0.00, Away 0.00; vs 4 Pretenders - Home 1.00, Away 0.00; vs Fairly Solid 4 - Home 2.25, Away 0.25; vs Fellow Strugglers - 2.75 Home, 0.50 Away. TOTAL = 40) [TABLE=width: 500] [TR] [TD]Rank[/TD] [TD]Team[/TD] [TD]Target Points[/TD] [TD]Actual Points[/TD] [TD]+/- vs Target[/TD] [TD]Goal Difference[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]WHU[/TD] [TD]12.25[/TD] [TD]15[/TD] [TD]+2.75[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]Wigan[/TD] [TD]9.50[/TD] [TD]11[/TD] [TD]+1.50[/TD] [TD]-5[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]Norwich[/TD] [TD]9.00[/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]+1.00[/TD] [TD]-10[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]Swansea[/TD] [TD]12.25[/TD] [TD]12[/TD] [TD]-0.25[/TD] [TD]+1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]Villa[/TD] [TD]10.25[/TD] [TD]9[/TD] [TD]-1.25[/TD] [TD]-6[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]Reading[/TD] [TD]7.25[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]-3.25[/TD] [TD]-6[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]7[/TD] [TD]QPR[/TD] [TD]7.25[/TD] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]-4.25[/TD] [TD]-11[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]8[/TD] [TD]Saints[/TD] [TD]9.25[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]-5.25[/TD] [TD]-12[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] So we're still in the sh*t but not "miles behind."

I'm not convinced that our formation isn't working because it has worked well against some decent sides. Individual errors have been killing us consistently. Having said that I fully respect your view because I know you travel to a lot of games. But that wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the pathetic whining on here when we're fielding players who don't normally play in a cup game that doesn't really matter much. Sure, I expected more or else I wouldn't have bothered tuning in, but it's sickening to read the same crap again and again and again from the same people. We're clearly in for a very tough season, which many foresaw before it even started, but this junk week-in-week out is not "support". It just makes tough times all the more difficult to handle.

Are you listening on Saints Player? I can't get anything out of it.

Pitiful, isn't it.

Oh, oh. That should bring Alpine back here.

I think we're closer now to knowing what our best starting line-up is, but it's taken longer than I expected - only partly due to injuries. Nigel has chopped and changed a fair bit, 'culminating' in the Boruc/Fonte/Jos/Yoshida combo he threw in last week, which still shipped four goals. No wonder we've not developed any consistency - or even any real familiarity. As Weston said, we have played most of the leading teams, which WHU certainly haven't, but we've also dropped too many points in the other games. Let's stick with Fonte and Yoshida in the middle at the back, and Mayuka has to start. Then, when Ramirez and Cork are fit again, we have some better options. Like Derry. I'm still not convinced that we can be successful if Schneiderlin and Davis play together.

I thought last week's change was unnecessary and came just as the defence was starting to look a little more settled. But now it's done, it's done and we should stick with him. I certainly wouldn't blame Boruc for the first - it was a fee header that was so well-placed that it started off going wide before the sidespin brought it back. However, I thought he over-committed badly on the second and ended up in keeper's no mans land.

It's not "game over" just because he's short - he could and should have done the next-best thing, which is play "spoiler" by jumping back into Bale rather than giving him the completely free header. That's what Rafael did but at least he did it - and he could even have ended up getting a free kick for his efforts. And my read was that Clyne was slow to react rather than flat-footed (ball watching), and he allowed Bale to come across the front of him. Sure, he wasn't in an easy situation but he has to do better or we're going to leak a lot more goals just like that one. I like him but he still has a lot to learn.

There's plenty of Premier league tape out there showing how weak Clyne is on a ball slung to the far post so we can expect to see it more and more. He offers a lot going forward and in certain defensive situations but he has to address this weakness - pronto. I'm starting to wonder if we employ a ball-watching coach because we're very good at it.

That's who I meant but I wasn't very clear.

IIRC Kelvin gave some 'fans' stick after he saved the penalty against Man United, didn't he? It wasn't a "Yeah, I saved it" reaction but a "FU" reaction. Some of these morons need sorting out.

Well, we got to see our relegation team and our mid-table team all in one match.

Spurs are completely there for the taking.

What we needed to do was keep the fast-flowing attacking football and lose the defensive errors. We appear to have done the complete reverse, and now - to make it even worse - we're playing without any passion. That will normally cost any manager his job.

We're as flat as a pancake. Little sign of passion and more of grim resignation.

At this stage of the season they do appear to have acclimatized/adjusted/strengthened much better than us, but let's not lose sight of the fact that five of their first eight games have been against what most view as likely fellow-strugglers. They've only played one elite team (Arsenal, at home, which they lost 3-1), while we've played three, two of them away. Even though they've certainly picked up the points, the jury is still very much out on them IMO - especially if Liverpool take Carroll back in January.

WRT the tactical discussion, no system in the world is going to make up for individual errors born out of lacking concentration and a habitual tendency to ball-watch, which IMO are the things at the root of our defensive frailty. When you add together a tendency to ball-watch with a commitment to zonal marking, you have a recipe for abject disaster. They got away with it to a point in the Championship but the weaknesses are ruthlessly exploited in the PL, where teams don't just spot the weakness but have the skill and the quick-thinking to attack it. That said, however, when our players (and it's not just defenders) aren't ball watching or going on mental walkabouts, most of them actually look PL standard - to me at least, which explains why we're much better when we have the ball than when we don't. WRT the thread topic, I really like Lallana but he needs to stop being such a (highly talented) "fart in a thunderstorm" and start developing a clearer role and identity within the structure we use - one which will hopefully involve a consistently-better final delivery and more shooting from the edge of the box. A Newcastle-supporting friend of mine asked me the other day what Lallana's role is in our team and I was hard-pressed to give him a decent answer, which say it all really. But maybe it's just me.

Thanks for the input everyone. I've built much of it into this update, which now adds Villa back in (because Wes is right - they certainly deserve to be there) as well as West Ham (because, despite their current position in the full table, the analysis supports Allardyce's caution and suggests that they're really still in this group). The PPG targets have been adjusted slightly but still end up aimed at a total of 40, and - of course - the inclusion of Villa and West Ham changes the +/- outcomes. Anyway, here goes: [TABLE=width: 750] [TR] [TD]Posn[/TD] [TD]Team[/TD] [TD]Target[/TD] [TD]Actual[/TD] [TD]+/-[/TD] [TD]GD[/TD] [TD]VS Likely Strugglers[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]West Ham[/TD] [TD]11.75[/TD] [TD]14[/TD] [TD]+2.25[/TD] [TD]+3[/TD] [TD]5 (3-1-1)[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]Norwich[/TD] [TD]6.25[/TD] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]-0.25[/TD] [TD]-11[/TD] [TD]1 (0-1-0)[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]Swansea[/TD] [TD]12.25[/TD] [TD]11[/TD] [TD]-1.25[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD]4 (2-1-1)[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]Wigan[/TD] [TD]6.75[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]-1.75[/TD] [TD]-7[/TD] [TD]2 (1-0-1)[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]Reading[/TD] [TD]5.00[/TD] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]-2.00[/TD] [TD]-6[/TD] [TD]1 (0-1-0)[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]Aston Villa[/TD] [TD]7.25[/TD] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]-2.25[/TD] [TD]-7[/TD] [TD]3 (1-0-2)[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]7[/TD] [TD]QPR[/TD] [TD]7.25[/TD] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]-4.25[/TD] [TD]-10[/TD] [TD]3 (0-1-2)[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]8[/TD] [TD]Southampton[/TD] [TD]8.25[/TD] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]-4.25[/TD] [TD]-11[/TD] [TD]3 (1-0-2)[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] And No, this is not about trying to pretend that we're not in the sh*t but about how deep the pile really is.

I agree with some of the posts on here but they're really beside the point I was trying to make. This isn't about why we're where we are (there are plenty of threads for that), or about which posters were right in the Summer and which were wrong (god knows there are enough threads contaminated with that), or even about whether West Ham have passed us by (they clearly have). It's simply focusing on the fact that - for the foreseeable future and whether we like it or not - we're effectively in a six-team mini-league in which we must finish in the top 3 to survive in the PL. In that league (realistically speaking) all games matter but some games really, really matter. It's a way of keeping a handle on how we're all doing in the games that really, really matter. (Yes, Wes, I originally had Villa in the Strugglers group but took them out - to create a little equilibrium more than anything else. I could fairly easily put them back in.) Rather than looking at the full division and treating every game the same, with all the associated post-match depression, I wanted to see how we were doing in that mini league. That's all. It helped me to gain a little perspective and helped me to realize that (for example) losing at home to Spurs - god forbid - wouldn't be three key points down the drain, but one. And to appreciate that one good result in which we pick up "above budget" points (a la Norwich) can make a very big difference. Even if it's just for myself I'll keep doing it because this is going to be a long, hard and often depressing season. For those who (wisely) want to keep a handle on goal difference as well, here's a quick update: Saints - Down 2.75 points, GD -11 QPR: - Down 2.00 points, GD -10 Reading - Down 0.25 points, GD -6 Norwich - Up 0.50 points, GD -11 Wigan - Up 1.00 points, GD -7 Swansea - Up 1.50 points, GD +2