Nineteen Canteen

Lol, With respect Frank if it happens you may not have long to live.

Ridicule away Wes but answer my first question if you would please. Would a loan of £2m saved the club on the 31st March 2009 and would it be unreasonable to assume the upshot would have been an offer of all 3 having a senior role on the board as we infact agreed not so long ago as the best way to move forward. I'm stupid and don't need you to remind me but surely this seems a very simple and sensible assumption to make, assuming Crouch still had his share of £6m to invest? If he chose not to after he was contacted by Lowe then is it not reasonable to ask why? The point of contention is perhaps would Lowe have contacted Crouch to discuss a possible loan? IMO I think it is inconceivable he wouldn't have done as I am sure he must have been working hard to try and secure the club's future and even if for personal reasons Crouch was a last resort it's no different than Barclays going to their lender of last resort, the BoE, just on a grander scale. Its unpalatable but sometimes you have no choice. Crouch would have loved it IMO had he been contacted by Lowe, imagine the power, the kudos. So what happened? Things don't stack up at the moment.

OMD and it's not something I am proud of. Enola Gay....

I might ask our No 1 fan for a lift. Its a 3 hour drive so what better way to while away the time to discuss the 2 million things (Sorry a 3rd of 6 million) I would like to talk about. I could also ask our resident legend what he thinks of the recent rows over MPs expenses and if they do enough to warrant their expenses every year. They would no doubt appreciate my company as they don't appear to have much to talk about and don't even discuss club issues allegedly as Legend had no idea the club was in such a perilious situation. Perhaps No 1 fan was worried about client confidentiality.

What about League 1 minus 10 points and Crouch back on the board? May not be so wonderful with 33% of the original problem back on board.

Is it tough love then Alpine? Fans knew the situation and what they could do to save the club but refer to go down the 'learn the hard way' route. Many personal tradegies have no doubt arisen from people adopting the 'I'll teach them a lesson' and this is just another albeit more public tradegy. Frank, I think it could have worked if every fan who bought more than 2 tickets got a mention on the OS and in the programme for being wonderful fans and worthy of being given the recognition for their selfless contribution.

Wes you don't believe a cash loan of £2m would have saved the club? I think it might have. Are we now saying Barclays were going to withdraw the entire facility hence the need for £6m? Wes I acknowledge these may be stupid questions as I am no expert or in a position of being ITK. In my experience though its sometimes the stupid questions that are hardest to answer and anyone who has brought up their can kids can testify. Those with the most limited knowledge can ask the most challenging questions so please ridicule me for being stupid if it helps.

That's right Mike but they didn't publicly offer a conditional cash injection, plus I think you'll find a separate thread along with many others to discuss this, even one suggesting David Speedie the agent could have saved us. Not though Chris McMenemy, perhaps he didn't have the client base.

Wes, Crocuh wanted to be involed in the Football side of things, why i don't know because what credentials did he or any of them have. Nonetheless, would it not be reasonable to conclude that Crouch was offered a role he would have liked in return for a £2m loan to keep the club afloat? Only 2 people and their closest confidants can answer that question and i would prefer to know before Crouch slinks his way back in if he can. There is no evidence on either side just an element of doubt or concern that perhaps something could have been done to stop administration and therefore worth considering IMO. Rebuke me all you like but I am not suggesting anything just asking the questions to see if this could be better understood. Plenty of negative comments and questions have been fired in Lowe's direction and rightly so but that should not be a smokescreen to other equally important questions on the other side of the coin. The attempts to ridicule me or 'chide' me simply fires my concern. Of course if the orginal offer of £2m or his third of £6m and been kept as a private offer between the 3 of them we woudl be having this debate now would we? So who is in the wrong for raising the debate?

Stop the bickering I agree with but I think it is important the questions raised are answered because like you it would be very unwelcome to say the least if any of the holy trinity returned. The way Crouch has positioned himself then it is not beyond the realms of a reasonable conclusion that he could at least be involved with a consortium and return to a position on the board he clearly covets. If he was not involved in anyway as of today and had disappeared over the horizon like Wilde or with a few parting shots like Lowe but still headed in the opposite direction oF SMS then all well and good but unfortunately for us he hasn't. Therefore, I think it is time that Crouch's role is scrutinised or we have a public statement confirming he will not be involved with the club in any capacity other than a fan and/or corporate client. In my personal opinion I do not believe a word the man says and that stems from pretty much the start of his chairmanship up until now and the whole £2m has been circumvented by the usual well would you invest retorts? The answer is no but neither would I have made it public in the first place. Crouch maybe a genuine and well meaning fan and ex-director who has always acted in good faith but his PR in that case has been an absolute disaster. A parody of PR IMO and wise businessmen IMO usually keep their counsel with regard to charitable donations and significant offers to help out should be kept private otherwise be able to withstand scrutiny, like understanding why he went public with his original offer for starters.

Dainty can I confirm what you are saying? Crouch never suggested he would offer £2m but would put in a third of £6m? How is that different form me suggesting that Crouch offered to invest £2m if Lowe and Wilde could match his contribution? Semantics isn't it? You stated, as FACT, on your original post that Wilde and Lowe rejected the SISU bid and by ommission suggested Crouch, until Sarnia Saints rightly corrected your somewhat misleading post. If Lowe or Wilde couldn't match Crouch's offer (can this be proved?) and Crouch was publicly willing to splash his cash why didn't he when it became desperate for him to do so? I don't think Rupert would have rejected Crouch's offer for a cash loan of £2m given Crouch could have been offered the role he covets. Rupert Lowe did not want this club to fail and neither would any businessman what the negative connations for which Lowe has now unjustly been hounded for IMO. So I think my premise is a reasonable point of view. Dainty you seem concerned with semantics, smokescreens and mirrors. £2m or a 3rd of £6m, I think most people understood where I was coming from and sorry if I am just a fan asking difficult questions but you are going to have to try harder than that to convince me about what went on.

Morph see the other thread that you seem to want to ignore. It's the same as this but asks the question of Leon Crouch. Do you know of him? I would value your answers to the questions raised regardless?

Stephen you seem more obsessed with me now than actually making a more meaningful contribution. Strange behaviour for one so connected. Are you still fulfilling a senior role on the Saints Trust? If you are as a representative, elected or otherwise of the fans you are making yourself look a bit of an ar5e if you don't mind me saying. Comment on the issues and stop stalking people, I don't love you anymore, get over it, I've moved on.

Sarnia - apologies I missed your response but thanks for clarification and as i thought.

Don't listen to Tame, I have no line whatsoever to Lowe. I simply don't understand how we can be so unbalanced in our assessment of a grave situation and support individuals who have serious questions with regard to their actions that should be answered given their public role in supporting and asking for support for a club they may have helped over the edge.

Did Crouch reject the SISU offer? It was Hone and Co who tabled it and I thought it was rejected by all 3. Not certain but if correct an important Fact ommitted.

Wouldn't have been dead if he put the money in before we went bust or do you think Lowe simply ignored Crouch's offer in his efforts to try and save the club prior to administration? Why not do that and put the club at massive risk? To save it for a bid he has told us he is not making? Interesting stuff don't you think?

Thank you, Steve. I think that is a very reasonable observation which should be clarified by the man himself. Begs the question was the original £2m offer given, knowing the conditions couldn't be matched? If so why? If the offer was genuine why did not stand a few months later? IMO £2m would have been enough to see us through and start rebuilding as everything else seemed to becoming under control. No doubt Crouch could have demanded the FC chairman role which he seemed to covet and no doubt would have been offered it as for all Lowe's fault his ego did not want him to contemplate failure and even as a last resort I think would have turned to Crouch IMO.

Colin it is for people like you I won't give up. I think my questions are genuine and well founded and worthy of debate. People in the know can put me right and if the answers withstand scrutiny we can all move on with our integrity intact IMO. If the questions cause offence...........

Is it Colin when Crouch is positioning himself as the man along with Richards to organise cash donations to save our club. To act like the big saviour when he actually could have saved the club with his recent offer of £2m. Irrelevant maybe in terms of the crisis we are now in but worth understanding the integrity of everyone now trying to save the club at least IMO.

Interesting that the majority so far deem it of little concern. At the eleventh hour I believe Lowe would have given up control of the club if he could have saved it and would have offered Crouch something in return. Even if Crouch received a phone call the night before there was still time to save the club and invest the £2m he had recently offered. If he didn't have the money why offer it so publicly if he couldn't back it up if pushed? If Crouch didn't have the £2m why did he offer it a few weeks before or was he still banking on his £1.9m of shares returning to his original purchase price?Was it just a bluff in an attempt to make the board look bad? Hardly supportive and bordering on dirty tricks IMO. Fair enough if he didn't want to save the club but why act so publicly that he was willing to save it a few weeks before and then turn his back assuming he was asked - which would have been most likely IMO. If he refused to invest why? Is he planning a comeback because he has stated he isn't? If he could have invested as per his previous offer surely he becomes enemy No 1 in the likely event we will now be relegated because of the chaos administration has caused regardless of pending decision from the league? McMenemy knew IMO the club was in meltdown because of his close relationship with Crouch who as a successful businessman and with close ties to Barclays would have been aware of what was happening IMO regardless of any communication from the club. So did McMenemy lie in his statement on the OS to support Crouch? To repeat Lowe was frantic in his efforts to source investment and he must have contacted Leon Crouch and discussions taken place. What were the result of those discussions and did Leon Crouch let this club go to the wall by withdrawing his offer of £2m? There is no suggestion that had he done so it would have been a temporary stay of execution and no doubt he would have been offered a role at the club so he could have made his subsequent touchline pleas as Football Chairman (or whatever) of a club still in charge of its own destiny and with costs increasingly under control about to turn around its fortune not put it on the verge of extinction. However, although we may be relegated perhaps we will be safe from extinction and our 'white knight' rolls into town with his consortium to Save our saints once again, inconceivable? I'm beginning to wonder if it's very probable and if so Division 1 football and a probable points penalty seems a hefty price to pay considering the alternative. Are Leon Crouch and his trusty sidekick beyond reproach or is Crouch especially as culpable if not more so than Lowe as we assess the situation in a little more detail. I would suggest there are questions that need answering if only to clear the murky waters in the run up to administration. A subsequent £50k donation and his PR exercise with the statue doesn't cut it for me I'm afraid and I would like to Crouch to be given the Paxman treatment in a public interview around the issue of the £2m and if it was revisited before Fry marched in. Some are saying it's in the past why does it matter. It matters because we need a clean slate, strong leadership and open and honest communication. If Crouch is positioning himself for a return can we be certain that we will get any of these criteria satisfied to take the club forward? I think we would need satisfactory answers to the points I have raised and I suspect others have many more questions, before a Crouch consortium could be readily accepted. I'm fed up with the look at me look how many pennies I have invested and his representation as the club's 'major fan'. Do we want more bs rhetoric and talk of play off places as we head south down the table, the Peter and the Wolf act over investment, Its an investor! Its an Investor! Its an Investor or the classic players will not need to leave because of Finances - Er Lee, go and tell 'em about Rasiak and Skacel, allegedly.

It was well documented prior to administration that Crouch offered to invest £2m into the club under the condition that Lowe and Wilde match his contribution. It is reasonable to assume Lowe or Wilde did not have that amount of cash available and it was well known right up till the last minute Lowe was franticly searching for investment to satisfy Barclays and save the club. Assuming I am correct in my understanding I find it inconceivable Lowe would not have approached Crouch and asked him to at a minimum loan the club £2m in order that we could get back within our operating limits imposed by the bank. Do you think Lowe contacted Crouch? Did Crouch refuse his request and if so was he aware that his refusal to invest unconditionally would be put the club into or on the brink of administration? Do you think he MUST have known it? Finally as we know Crouch and McMenemy travel to games together can we still believe McMenemy's comment on the OS that he was unaware of the perilious state the club was in? Are those who are held in such high regard by many fans acting as we would expect them to in accordance with that position of respect they are afforded? I don't know but I would like these questions clarified.

Spot on, let those who continued to get their fix of Saints by filling the coffers of other clubs whilst deliberately avoiding SMS pay the price for their actions. Its about time a little mud stuck to them and whilst it's hardly justice given our predicament the hardcore of home support deserves to be recognised and rewarded and those with a local post code and solely an away match attendance should frankly be offered tickets only after they have been on general sale for a week.

Better the devil you know, or even the one you thought you knew.

Trousers I support the idea in theory and if we can't fulfill fixtures next season funds can simply be returned to the individual less administration costs as banks don't manage these accounts for nothing. It would be a far stronger message than the pledge process because real money will be sitting there ready to go. Problem is public trust and understanding and mechanics of an escrow account and a bank will need to be appinted to manage it and fees paid accordingly which won't be cheap. Also the pledge process is the darkest hour solution and allows fans to keep their powder dry before they know the idenity of the new regime they are supporting or keep their promise if nothing materialises. The identity of new owners shouldn't be an issue but recent events tell us otherwise and for all my opinions I would have an issue paying for a ST to fan run club with very limited resources and would prefer to attend on a match by match basis for as long as we remained in business. For the record I would be willing to pay c£350 for a ticket in L1 and up to £400 for a ticket in the CCC to support a rebuild of the club under the right ownership otherwise pay on a Match by Match basis.