dronskisaint

Just to respond to your comments one by one:- 1) Yes, we are part of a community of trading nations, but I wouldn't exactly describe it as loose, bearing in mind the powers that Brussels have over the bureaucratic restrictions that they place over much of the products we produce and the hoops that they force many of our manufacturers/growers/producers to jump through. But as to the claim that we we have greater strength by being part of a stronger and tighter economic group, what exactly does that mean? I ask again, would us leaving the EU mean that the Germans wouldn't want to sell us their Volkswagens, or the French their Renaults, or the Italians their fridges? No, it wouldn't. And if they wanted to export their goods to us, we are in a powerful position to demand that they reciprocate by buying our goods. That is the essence of a trading relationship. But outside of the EU, we would be able to find new markets or strengthen ties with other Countries. As we are a nett importer, we are in a powerful bargaining position. A) The other markets elsewhere demand at least as stringent checks & hoops to be jumped through...the difference between the European markets is that there are workable limits set in place by Brussels so that the goalposts don't move in the same way as a non-EU country could decide to do thereby keeping the playing field more level. Of course we would still want German & Italian goods but we know what standards they have to be built to & within the EU parameters the UK government can't plant a huge import tariff on these to load the dice against the competition - it doesn't preclude other traders selling their products indeed the likes of Honda, Toyota, Nissan etc have set up factories within the UK so as to compete within the market...are you saying that this is a bad thing? We don't really have a car production business any more but where we do have a surplus or a currency advantage the EU markets are statutorily open to us in a way that others are not required to be. 2) The elections to the European Gravy Train, sorry, Parliament, is a joke, as such a small proportion of the electorate even bother to vote. Our representation in the European Parliament is derisory and since the enlargement of the body to include those numerous former Iron Curtain States, our influence is considerably reduced. Perhaps if only nett contributors to the funding of the United States of Europe were allowed to vote on its policies, then I wouldn't mind so much. And there is already an EU flag and supposedly a main language, thankfully English, although that wouldn't be so if the French had their way. How long do you reckon it will be before there is an EU anthem? No ministers in our Parliament, granted. But much of European law has precedence over the laws passed by our Parliament, so what would be the necessity for their Ministers sitting in our Parliament. It is already emasculated. B) I agree that it is a poorly administrated & unenthusiastically voted for forum...which makes the likes of Farage & Co seem even less palatable for despising it yet trousering the dollar. Without being an elected part of it, however, how can we either represent our case or change it....I revert back to the desperately juvenile antics of F & B..they cannot & will not ever be taken seriously so destroy any chance that UKIP has of being representative. As for anthems etc please don't expect me to consider that as part of any economic argument which is my only interest in this. Ideologically I don't have an issue either way...insular thinking is not what this is about for me. 3)There are several trading groups we could join to enhance our export capabilities. One that we could consider growing would be the Commonwealth. Our historical links with many of those countries means that there is already a natural reason for us to maintain a trading relationship with many of them, to our mutual advantage. And in the same way that Canada has joined NAFTA, we could join the EFTA and thereby probably encourage others to follow suit. C) As before...we can still trade with who we like - it's just easier to do so from the strength of a trading group. In a sense EU standards ensure that our products are of an acceptable, safe & hopefully desirable quality so all we have to get right is the cost - currency has a role - the £ is weaker than the euro so we have an export advantage (I'm an importer so the opposite applies) to whoever has the choice of buying from either currency. What having trading laws within Europe ensures is that Germany can't suddenly slap an import tax of 50% on a Caterham whereas Canada, for instance, could. I'm sorry for the reply format..I'm not very bright with things computerish....I rarely have time to get in to discussions like this but a new system is being installed so I'm making the most of it. I can accept rational argument but this is not supplied by UKIP...anyone can say no, no, no but to gain credibility you have to provide logical & workable alternatives espoused by people capable of commanding respect and backed by business leaders. This is unequivocally not the case.

qed

1) We already are in a loose community of trading nations - we have a greater strength to deal with them by being a part of a stronger & tighter economic group. 2) We elect to the European Parliament, not the other way round..no anthem or ministers are resident in our Parliament 3) Canada is one of the loose community as in 1) - note they choose to be a part of NAFTA to enhance their deals & influence with the rest of the world.

'I tell you what.we are one of the worlds major exporters/importers' 50% of this statement is true:D

So it's scaremongering claptrap if you disagree and a crusade if you do? You know as well as I do that trade wouldn't be as free between EU countries as it is now - it wasn't pre-EU so what would be the incentive to return to a world of tarriffs & taxation that we (I run an importing business by the way so am dealing with these every working day) experienced before and that we still do when encountering trade-protective policies with other parts of the world? Of course we're always going to be a nett importer...we're a small, heavily-populated island. It's one of the attractions of being a part of a greater free-trade partnership that allows us to take advantage of the trade freedoms accorded to a group with the buying/selling power of the EU. It amuses and frustrates me to read and hear the puerile Empirical stance taken by UKIP...we don't have a Commonwealth any more....it's essential that we have a strong position with a geographically-logical group of trading partners to enhance our ability to get the better terms available. Why would such a group tolerate what you are suggesting? You don't buy a season ticket to watch just one small percentage of the pitch - you don't join a trading partnership just to take what you want. Sure there are bits that aren't as you'd do them if standing alone but you are dreaming about being able to have the benefits without the whole. I'm not politically driven in my support for the EU as it stands...I'm a businessman who employs staff who would quite like for it to continue that way. I have dealings with Asia, Europe, US & the Antipodes & I understand the consequence of being on the outside looking in - the EU is far from perfect & currently being out of the Euro is beneficial (although most in my position would argue that being in from the start would have benefitted the UK more) but to do as UKIP are suggesting would be copmmercial suicide on a huge scale. Your 'All we have to do' list is ill-considered fantasy from where I'm standing I'm afraid and would result in exactly what I warn of...fortunately it will not happen because, whatever I think of the Condems, they are backed by business people with too much to lose by supporting anything that resembles this & Labour would be idealogigally against it. UKIP are out on a credibility limb for a reason...blind nationalism doesn't pay bills.

The well-publicised rant by Farage against the Belgian leader plus the eviction of Godfrey Bloom for quoting Hitler in the EU Chamber must make you so very proud?! To use Farage as a comparative in a scale of 'bonker' wrings any last shred of credibility from your pronouncements...NB - I don't use the word argument...that would denote that you had a hint of a case to make.

I can't really do other than agree to differ on Lennon v Mc Cartney...I don't know if you saw the documentary about the making of 'Plastic Ono Band'? Same series as the BotR I think - I learnt a lot about Ringo's drumming ability that I hadn't known before - Lennon famously said that Ringo wasn't even the best drummer in the Beatles but his faith in him to lay down the backing as he saw fit belies this as a bit of caustic throwaway humour.Interesting that you see Imagine as over-produced yet Lennon gave this one to Phil Spector. As I/you said it's just different perspectives - I just count myself privileged to grow up in that era in the same way as I feel lucky to have been around to see the first ever Div 1 promotion for Saints. I'm sure you're right about Denny Laine - I was going by having seen him perform it live & that the single was also live. I was taken by the girl friend of the time along in an effort to educate me towards McCartney...that worked well! Wings in the early days were pretty musically embarrassing as I recall but he maintains he was doing it for him, Linda & nobody else...likewise the Lennon/Yoko stuff although Lennon would maintain he was doing the bag-ins & bed-ins to highlight a plea for world peace. Embarrassing but well-intentioned naivety! I mostly agree re the retirement...my nieces in Canada had me green with envy in seeing Leonard Cohen recently...I've seen some DVDs of the last tour & they were outstanding in their brilliance. I think (some) singer/songwriters maybe carry it off better than bands.

:d:d

One of whom is dead...another is the one who invited Geert Wilders (sp?) to the UK & hardly rates as a business leader! Not heard of Lowe unless he's related...? You prove my point for me!

Let's get real here - any 'crusade' that is adopted by Farage, Bloom & their ilk is intellectually doomed from the start. Ultimately the EU is a trading partnership that the UK has managed to cherry-pick for it's better bits whist avoiding the currency bear trap. Getting out of it would send many businesses to the wall & contribute massively to the rising unemployment figures...you'll not see credible business leaders joining the campaign.

I saw the full interview on the ITV FA Cup highlights...go have a look. You have to watch Cheltenham's manager saying positive things about us for a couple of minutes but I assure you it's there.

Hip injury according to Adkins as the reason he was substituted...I know - it's easy to mishear that as 'we had a blazing row' -simple mistake to make:)

This! The difference between last year's total & this is inches, paint thicknesses & defenders & keepers throwing themselves in the way. He has the touch, the lay offs, the abilities to fully deserve his place & class will out in the end. He'll score more than 20 this year. Keep the faith...there's not a club in this division that wouldn't drool at the thought of having him in their side...let's just count our blessings he's not doing it for someone else!

I respect your opinion...it's difficult to criticise what I consider the finest band to have graced my lifetime but McCartney's offerings post Beatles have been largely commercial & lacking in depth as compared with Lennons'. 'Maybe I'm amazed' (Denny Laine played lead incidently) & 'Let me roll it' stand out as having learnt something in all those years but whilst quantity is there there is a lack of quality. If he'd lived then we could be having the same conversation about Lennon's later work...& however schmaltzy 'Beautiful Boy' may be compare it with 'Mary had a little lamb', 'Ebony & ivory', 'Frogs chorus',...do I need to go on? I'm an avid Beatles fan - it's difficult to fault much of the material & I do appreciate that many of the 'Another Lennon & McCartney original' tracks were written independently but with the background of all that was that period in time..conflicts, world domination & all. I guess I'm just disappointed in McCartney since...Harrison improved, Lennon produced the Imagine & the 'Working class hero album' for want of a title plus some mixed stuff on Walls & Bridges, Mind Games, Some Time in NYC etc &, for me, hit artistic heights that McCartney never came close to. Double Fantasy was a toe back in the water...so incredibly sad that he never got to go further.

I disagree that this is any definition of the function of the forum...I joined in the dark days when it looked as we might fold & was grateful for any information that could be gleaned but inside information on the team & transfer activity were & are a long way from my expectation. I am not 'in the know' in any way shape or form although I did get one piece of information about the missing programme from a friend who works with someone married to one of the coaching staff & passed it on for what it was...I couldn't vouch for it's accuracy, naturally. If one of my employees here where I work was passing on information about my business that could be sensitive for any reason I'd leave my footprint on their a*se as they left....we're supposed to be supporting the club not undermining it & I'm glad that our moderators see it that way - if indeed that is the case.

Sometimes he has the press in his pocket & there may be a silver lining?

We're going up as champions...sod Bompey :-)

What did the slug say to the snail? 'Biiiig Issue....!'

I need to borrow that pigeon!

Yes he should be collared for off the cuff remarks like this - tell him to button it!

Heard a quote when George died that the Beatles were dying in the wrong order...as far as talent goes I agree - Ringo has a long life to look forward to As far as the Lennon v McCartney question....Macca produced all that was good of his when inspired by Lennon - even competitively shortly after the break up & has mostly produced pop-pap ever since. Lennon's music will, however, live forever...with the exception of some of the Yoko wailing stuff I do grant you....although some of the stuff she inspired compensates for that.

Is there another kind?

Whilst he's not got the confidence he needs currently to be the goalscorer of last year he's far too proven a striker to let go. I also think that some of his touches & lay offs last night were central to our dominance of our play in the last third. It's a tired cliche but class is permanent...watch him go once the chances go the right side of the post. He's been inches & paint thicknesses away from being this year's top scorer...we have to stick with him in my opinion.

Now on this I do agree...nasty, niggling, cynical Hispanic

I suspect the frustration is borne out out the fact that if you had seen the match you would not have made your statement...that is the difference.