Sour Mash

An 18 month prison sentence for singing an offensive song is mental, no two ways about it. I don't doubt they're fairly "unpleasant" individuals, but that's not really the point.

So is there a left-wing alternative or not? I thought earlier in the thread the position was that there wasn't any political party offering a viable alternative to LabourConservatives?

That's my point, why hasn't there been a left-wing alternative, similar to what UKIP offers some dissatified Tory supporters? To at least act as a protest vote in local and European elections? But what have we seen in the 20+ years of "New" Labour?

Not saying that it is easy and without barriers, but does the Labour party not (in general) give local party members some say in their Parliamentary Candidates?

The "Socialist Worker" example was just off the top of my head, but I do find it surprising that there hasn't at least been some kind of reasonable sized left-wing movement to offer an alternative to Labour if so many feel strongly that they have moved away from their supposed original core message. I agreee with your last point, re OXbridge clones, but what can be done about that?

At least get involved as a party activist to influence selection of parliamentary candidates for example., rather than just moan from the sidelines.

That might save us from some of the more extreme policies and decisions of such administrations, but overall you're still going to have the same type of people with the same type of views running the country.

Can't judge new signings after only a handful of games.

Have the likes of the Socialist Workers Party or any similar groups seen a rise in membership/activity in the last 10 years or so in reaction to Labour not being left-wing enough for it's supporters? In a similar way to UKIP appealing to some that disapprove of the current Tories' stance on Europe etc for example?

No, that's exactly how our system works actually. The two major parties are centre/middle ground because in the main, that is where the majority of the country's political allegience lies. Minority parties are minority parties for a reason, they're not popular and not many people want to vote for them. Yes, PR would give them a couple of seats, as I've said further up the thread, I would personally support PR, but you're kidding yourself if you think it would significantly change the sort of people that will run this country. As for your point on there never being more a GE winner elected with more than 50% of the registered electorate voting for them - well that certainly wouldn't be the case under a PR scheme either, so little difference made there.

On your first sentence you're wrong, the difference is that Tory voters don't constantly go on with "She's wasn't really a Tory", "Well I didn't vote for her" and generally pretend she wasn't a key, important part of the Tory party for a long time, in the way that Labour supporters seem to with Blair. With the rest of your post - lots of wish-washy statements about the current situation not really working (it does actually), but no practical suggestion for an alternative system.

Your statement of "The labour movement died, or at least lies mortally wounded with Blair's new labour project." My take on it was Ex Lion tamer was explaining why they were still Labour "protecting NHS, minimum wage" etc, could have been a response to either I guess.

I don't think I suggested you spoke for the majority of Labour supporters. This thread isn't about you. The majority of Labour supporters continued to vote for him and support him. How many serious, determined, well supported attempts were there to oust Blair while he was in office? The point being he was a Labour PM happily supported by the majority of the Labour party.

I agree with the idea of PR as a general principle, but how much of a difference would it really make to who we have in power? Not much I would argue. Maybe a couple of green mps, a couple of far left and maybe a far right one at a stretch, the majority would still be very similar to what we have now.

We're "left" with such policies and governments because in the main that is what the people of this country want. It might not be your choice, but that's one of the downsides of democracy I'm afraid.

Surely that should be in reply to Saint Bletch and not me?

Why did you do that?

But the majority of Labour supporters continued to vote for him.

Every team in the league's results will affect the outcome of the top 4.

Sunderland Palace Hull This isn't Saints related either.

Chelsea Arsenal Man City Spurs How is this thread Saints related?

Absolutely crazy sentences. Even more bizzare is how it could be classified as "football related". Very strange.

Mcmenemy's Diary of a Season is really good, Perry Groves Autobiography as well, not loads of Saints in that one though. David Armstrong has just brought one out, might buy that myself thinking about it.

"EPL Placement", "non-critical path", "There is only ONE cup - and that is the Champions League Trophy" take it this is an American "Soccer" parody?

When was this?