KelvinsRightGlove

I'm not asking for pleasing content. I asked how, in an area where all of UKIPs claims should be most apparent, they performed so poorly? You basically repeated my points, it's a big city, with people from all over the world, oh and then said it's because we have all been brainwashed? Where does that come in on your disinformation scale? Errm, well you answered the question pap, they are close but not the same. Is it uncommon for neighbouring electoral districts to return different result? Nah, not by a long shot. There is also the fact that Essex, being a county, not a City is a lot different. There are some built up towns, but also more rural areas. Closer to home for you, how come Wallasey & Birkenhead voted Labour in 2010, yet Wirral West voted Tory?

this one too

For an intelligent chap, you do talk nonsense sometimes. If all UKIPs scare stories are true, London should feel all the problems more than anywhere. It is has amongst the highest rates of immigration in the country, the highest population of any where in the country and debatably the biggest strain on services. Yep, there is an ethnically diverse population, but that should bother Nigel, he showed us how many black friends he has, he stood on a stage with like 20 of them, HE CANT POSSIBLY BE NASTY!!! If there was such problems UKIP tell us, you would expect people in the areas most affected to buy into it. They didn't, even the BNP managed to make a mark in local elections in East London. Maybe they earned their lesson?

Eh? I'm not saying they haven't done well everywhere, was commenting on how poorly they did in London. How do you explain that?

I can see Ed being ousted before next year. They did ok, but you feel they should be doing better at this time in the cycle, labour have consistently been behind where they should be, especially when you consider what the government have been doing. Labour not being streets ahead is a pretty poor showing. It's also interesting how poorly UKIP did here in London. Immigration and pressures on public services are (arguably) felt more than elsewhere. They barely showed up, and even where they did they performed poorly. No surprises that their xenophobic rhetoric doesn't wash with the more culturally diverse areas.

If you sound like a t**t, people may just think you are a t**t.

"I'd have asked the lesbo" Call it a witch hunt all you want, but that sort of thing is the thing that alienates people. Ignorant nonsense, for which there is absolutely no need.

Pap, I'm sorry to interject, I know you are occupied with others here. But I see two separate points here. 1) the OP - planes never hit the WTC 2) 9/11 was not an act of AQ and instead carried out, or at least initiated by the US itself. Forgive my naïveté, I see the two as separate. So, for clarity, is this discussion on whether the planes hit (separate entirely to if they bought the towers down)? If so, are you saying planes were or were not involved? Also, I question the timeline (apologies if I'm thinking of something different) but my understanding on the impact of questionable/stolen elections in this debate is that the election was the year prior, ie the 2000 Bush vs Gore election. I understood it that there was a line of thought that saw 9/11 as a distraction from the anger post 2000, and the seemingly dodgy/stolen election which hinged on a few hundred votes in Florida, where Jeb Bush was Governor and controversially stepped in and stopped recounts when it seemed George was ahead. This was debated well into 2001 and there were numerous campaigns and groups (519 groups were they called? Sorry my memory is hazy on that). As 9/11 happened, a lot of the talk about the legitimacy of GW vanished, as, the country perceived the threat of terrorism (understandably given they believed terror groups had just flown planes into two iconic buildings in one of the countries most populous areas). Anyways, not trying to start a row, just you know discussing, and trying to gain a clearer understanding if where you are coming from before passing a judgement. Ta.

Lord D, for once, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Same for me, though granted was at about 8am on my way to work.

Did you just suggest using one of the kids Windows? I don't get what's just happened.

Can't see it being very high. Rarely is for EU/local elections, well elections in general now. What was your point re: Nazis earlier? I see you have been distracted arguing over structural engineering most of the day

You literally swallow whatever bullsh*t they trot out don't you?

I know it's Green Day, and I know they are crap/knobs, but this just came on the radio and it did make me smile. Reminded me of being an angsty teen (that yes, did like Green Day)

It's scary that it will allow corporations to sue govts in private courts if that govt impedes it's enterprise. Long story short - bye bye NHS. Can't for the life of me work out why UKIP aren't screaming from the rooftops about this.

I'm scared to admit to liking bands on here now, but I do enjoy this album. Though, I can't get away from the Tom Petty/Boss similarities. That said, I like Tom Petty & The Boss too, so could be worse I guess.

Moscow. Boiling hot, rammed, and f all there. Computer systems crashed and everyone ran around without a clue what to do. Finally got us on a plane, they realised they could just print out a list of names and use a pencil (FFS). Once finally on the plane, held on the tarmac for 2 hours (with the doors open, in November sub-Zero temps) when they finally worked out they could just count us, between 3 of them it took about 20 attempts to count the passengers and come up with the same number. FFS.

No, mostly because I'm aware of it already. But, also it stands to reason. The Nazis pretty much took over every aspect of Germany. Therefore, the majority (not all, but most) people who were educated to a high, or in any kind of administrative/bureaucratic position would have been party of the Nazi umbrella. It would have been impossible to wipe Germany of all people to have had any association with the Nazi and simultaneously rebuild a new society with all the institutions that go along with it. So yes, department heads, politicians, doctors, lawyers, teachers, prominent people in all the various walks of any society would have indeed had a fair share of former Nazis. I don't really see the point you are trying make Paps, it's pretty obvious really. A big country of millions of people can't go from being a One-Party State to having no-one once associated with said party overnight. Like it or not, some part of the founding of ECSC (along with other reasons) was to interlock countries within Europe, tying them financially to make wars, like the two devastating World Wars (the things that wouldn't be taken into account with your "100 years ago that would be treaason" b******s) that happened in the first half of last century less likely. In many ways, along with other bodies it has done this well. For it to have any success, of course it was going to have to involve Germany, so yes, of course it was going to involve former Nazis. Hardly an earth shattering revelation.

You would probably find it funny who I voted for, given some of our previous exchanges. I certainly do not subscribe to the treason notion. 100 years ago maybe, but a lot has gone on in those 100 years that has changed the landscape drastically. Ignoring what has happened in that time is just silly. I get not everyone is enamoured with the EU, I think we as a country need to talk about it properly (which for me is not the UKIP way), and yes have a referendum on it. I would still be on the EU side, just. I don't like all of it, but I still believe we net gain from it. I'm not convinced that immigration is the problem we are told it is (i.e. wages, healthcare pressures etc.), I'm actually of the opinion the country benefits from it.

C'mon chaps. Let's get this one going again. Sounds like I'm going to be getting soaked on Saturday. Finnsbury Park for the Arctics, Royal Blood, Miles & Tame Impala on the bill too. Should be fun, shame about the crappy weather though. Also got Cloud Nothings @ the Scala next week. Seriously excited for that one, were fantastic last time I saw them.

But surely, you buy 19 tickets to see Southampton FC? You will be guaranteed 19 tickets to see Southampton FC. So you do know what you will be buying. It's more like paying to see a film, without knowing all the characters, plot-twists etc. There's always a chance the team are going to have a bad year.

What Cinema season-tickets or memberships? Nah, no one in the world buys them.

Christ, even the Christian Peoples Alliance (who were also on my ticket) advocate a referendum, and currently would side with a "out" vote.

Yeah had them, as well as: An Independence from Europe Party - "UK Independence now" Harmony Party - "Harmony Party Zero-Immigration, More Jobs, Anti-Globalization" National Liberal Party - True Liberalism - "National Liberal Party – Self-determination for all!" (can't tell at a glance whether they are anti-EU, but lots of talk of self-determination) Also, NO2EU - "Yes to workers' rights", though I knew about this one as Pap has mentioned them several times.