Wes Tender

Just how stupid the electorate must be to believe that Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Hancock, Gove, Patel etc were preferable to Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry, Lammy, Lewis, Phillips, eh? But there you go, it was the former that they voted for in their droves, even the traditional Labour voters. Strange old world, isn't it? Why don't you stop beating yourself up about it and move on, Soggy? Many more laughs to come from any of that list of candidates for future leader Labour, but as LD says, had Caroline Flint been an option and surrounded herself with like-minded moderates, the party would have already been on the way back in the minds of their voter base.

I'm not really interested in indulging in any speculation about the future trade relations between us and the EU this far ahead. Clearly since the events of a week ago, remain is dead in the water and so naturally you're feeling a bit sore about it. If you wish to fantasise about how it will all pan out, go ahead and fill your boots. So far, I've been on the right side of the referendum, the EU elections and now the General Election. Life just gets better and better. By all means come back on the matter of our future trading arrangements nearer to the end of July, when the EU will begin to get more nervous about the cliff edge they will face then, as they perceive that to be some sort of deadline for us to extend the WA, even though they have already been told it will not happen.

Don't be silly, Gavyn. All of the remoaner brigade of course think that Boris' position has increased uncertainty. It is their default position to try and perpetuate project fear, especially as a knee-jerk reaction to the drubbing their position took a week ago. Typical of them and you to believe that certainty is best served by keeping options for an extension open, so that there is absolutely no pressure at all to get Brexit done. I said that your inability to understand this concept would be no surprise to me. And what a bizarre and childishly simplistic analogy, as if our trading partnership with the EU was remotely comparable to the EU being one singular type of collective entity and we another one. The EU wouldn't be affected equally and proportionately member state by member state. Some will be affected considerably more than others like Germany industrially and France agriculturally, whereas other states who hardly do any trade with us will not be affected much at all. So this talk of only 3-4% of the EU's economy is more pertinently viewed in terms of the effect on those country's economies which do the highest level of trade with us with most to lose. And we of course will be able to offset some of that with trade around the world with countries supplying products at a more competitive price. I trust that you will agree that the continuation of tariff free trade between us and the EU is in the mutual interests of both parties. The EU now know that unless they have arranged at least a rudimentary trading agreement with us by that deadline, we are out on WTO terms. It should concentrate their minds wonderfully. For the first time in three and a half years, the ball is firmly in their court.

No it won't. The EU do more trade with us than we do with them.

One man's certainty is another man's uncertainty. I don't know why you should be so surprised that Boris has nailed down his commitment that we will not be extending the transition period beyond the end of next year. As in any business transaction, one's negotiating position is undermined not only by failing to express the willingness to walk away from a bad deal, but also by not being firm about the deadline of when that will happen. I'm surprised that you cannot recognise that - or maybe I shouldn't be surprised after all. Our position is at last one of great clarity, so the EU know what they must do to avoid the so-called cliff edge which will also have hard implications for them too. As for the childish counterproductive grandstanding, you speak as if there has not been any from the EU side, or indeed from you.

Looking on the bright side, the Lib Dumb MPs will be able to save money on travelling to their conference and other events, as they can hire just the one mini-bus

Good news that wandering village idiot Steve Bray will no longer be braying "Stop Brexit" through his loudspeaker on College Green outside the Houses of Parliament. Presumably all those other remoaners who gathered there alongside him with their EU flags and banners will also have realised that their protests are now pointless, so why bother? Bray was aided in making up his mind following standing for the Lib Dumbs in the General Election and coming in 6th and losing his deposit. Maybe during the campaign he wore his stupid hat and cape and voters thought he was from the Monster Raving Looney Party. I always suspected that the BBC and other broadcasting media were perfectly content to have this idiot interrupting their broadcasts either verbally or by standing in the background with his banners. It would have been simple to have set up a soundproofed room or to have held broadcasted interviews elsewhere, but the remoaner media were quite content to show any sort of dissent to Brexit. Additionally, it looks as if Bercow's ruling that Big Ben will not chime on the day we officially are out of the EU will now be overturned. Full speed ahead too perhaps for the commemorative coins and stamps and the additional Independence day Bank Holiday.

Look, I'm not so arrogant as to tell you how you might feel under various circumstances, so please don't make assumptions that you are not qualified to attempt about me.

I would be happier with a large yacht and plenty of money. But if I had them, then it would make the likes of you bitter and twisted.

You mean all you remoaners? GM isn't an acquaintance of mine, Thame. Sorry. I don't need to speak on his behalf any more than you do for the several remoaners on here who hunt as a pack against any voice of dissent towards their opinions. As for the rise and fall of the £, then you appear to have overlooked that you lot crow when it goes down, so you must expect the opposite situation when it rises. I expect that GM does it just to rile you remoaners and you fall for it every time.

I do have some idea of how successful GM is, but have no idea of how successful you are. You are a bit of a snob, also your post suggest that you are an arrogant elitist like many of the remainers. Education at a tender age isn't necessarily a good metric by which to judge people's abilities or indeed intelligence. Many people become successful subsequently despite not achieving exam or degree success. It says a lot about your character when you look down your nose at others in such a condescending manner. Have you never replied on somebody else's behalf? I'm pretty sure you have indulged yourself frequently.

Now, now, I expect that GM is far more successful than you, unless you are going to prove otherwise, so does that make you thicker than him?

Haven't you heard of the metropolitan remainer bubble? As I said, you're well out of touch with the average voter. As for your arrogant opinion on the plebs, there isn't a single pro-Brexit poster on this forum who you don't insult as being thick, racist little Englanders. It really amuses me and satisfies the hell out of me that you so-called intellectual remoaners have been soundly thrashed electorally by those whom you despise. Karma.

Gavyn is some sort of consultant, Nolan. He says he will continue with his feather-bedded existence regardless of Brexit, deal or no deal. He is probably in his very own personal ivory tower, totally oblivious to the feelings and desires of the thicko Brexiteer plebs who exist outside of the metropolitan remoaner bubble.

Yes, it's great, isn't it, our country going its own way into the future as an independent trading nation, taking back control of our laws, borders and money. I think you have things the wrong way around, the UK populists are the dog, the tail wagging the dog was the EU. Noted that anybody who holds a different opinion to you on the EU is a freak or a fanatic, but a pity for you remoaners that are so many of us, isn't it? That's democracy for you.

I was going to argue the toss with your post, but frankly the best response is this one;

Great news this morning that Boris is going to put into law the prevention of any extension to the WA beyond this time next year, therefore also at a stroke ruling out the Benn surrender act that stipulated that we could not leave without a deal. Pre-election, Barnier had stuck his oar in stating that there probably would not be enough time to arrange a trade deal within that schedule and no doubt the strategy was to drag out the negotiations until that became impossible and then to delay it as long as possible to strengthen the EU's position. The massive majority has strengthened our hand considerably and within days of the election, we have laid out our stall that we have had enough dithering this last three and a half years, lost patience, and are prepared to play hard ball, deal or no deal within a year. Shortly after the election result, the establishment media optimistically predicted that with the thumping majority Boris now had, he could afford to extend the withdrawal period, ignoring any dissent from the ERG and the DUP. This announcement buries that assumption and signals Boris' determination that there will be no fudging the issue. As you say, GM, Boris is indeed playing a blinder.

If you're going to go off on one, do try and get your facts right. Yes, 80% of the electorate voted for parties in the 2017 GE who had promised to honour the referendum vote. I never claimed that a set percentage of voters in those parties were either leave or remain voters. You failing to understand the difference makes you look a bit stupid, Gavyn. That is why around two thirds of the constituencies had leave voting majorities, whereas Parliament consisted of two thirds of remoaner MPs. Your point that many remoaners voted Labour supports my point, because as surely was the case, around 20% of Tories were remoaners and all of the main parties had a mix between the two positions. Would you like me to create an analogy involving donkeys to simply it for you?

You make the same basic error of reasoning that Soggy did earlier. You conflate the share of the vote for parties that wanted a second referendum with the number of voters who wanted to either leave or remain in the EU within those parties. Yes we know how many people voted for each party, but there was no way of knowing whether those voters were remainers or leavers. But it is indicative that those Labour and Lib Dumb seats were lost because the party ignored their leave majorities, or because of Corbyn, or indeed both.

I think that you ought to look up the definition of a champagne socialist, Gavin. It doesn't preclude those who rose to prominence from humble beginnings. I see no reason whatsoever why it doesn't fit Adonis like a glove; only having been elected once at a minor level, he then rose up through patronage to be a Government minister and a Baronet. So humble beginnings, journalist, Government Minister, House of Lords, but according to you Gavyn, his humble beginnings excuse him from accusations that his current privileged champagne lifestyle fits the description perfectly. Me envious of him? Don't make me laugh.

On top insult form this morning, Gavin. Well done. As the days pass and the remoaner defeat sinks in more deeply, the dialogue includes ever more bitter recriminations and self introspection. But there will always be those remoaners epitomised by the likes of you who don't realise that it is precisely this arrogance and the belief that the leavers were too thick to realise what they wanted that was the reason that they lost the referendum vote, and have now been thrashed in the General Election. I don't forget that the backstop was agreed by the hapless and serially useless May and her puppet-master Ollie Robins as part of her Chequers surrender treaty, and was always of the opinion that it represented precisely the bad deal that no deal was better than it. I am quite content with Boris' WA, as are all of the ERG spartans. Perhaps you ought to tw*tter them all and relate your little playground analogy of how to negotiate the best price for donkeys. I can see how upset you are that Boris' WA will achieve the majority in the House that means us leaving by the end of January and there is nothing anybody can do to prevent it now. I look forward to the coming year's event with some considerable optimism, whereas I can see you becoming more down in the mouth and even more insulting to those on the right side of recent events.

Timmy asserted that we would leave with a Norway style deal, I bet him £50 that we would not. HTH

What's my education background got to do with anything, Gavyn? Adonis has achieved quite a lot in his life, but being electable apart from at local government level, and being right about the political landscape are areas where his is signally a failure. If he's a good friend and you haven't heard from him since Labour's debacle defeat in the Euro elections, perhaps you might put a metaphorical friendly arm around his shoulders to comfort him after this devastating reversal of his party's fortunes. Perhaps you can both go out and drown your sorrows, and you can advise him on where else in the world with a socialist government his talents would be best suited to.

Calling Bucktootim to the thread. It is pertinent now to ask when you will concede defeat on our £50 bet, the proceeds to go to charity, on whether the UK would end up with a Norway style Brexit or not. You can wait until the end of January when we will have left the EU, if you like, or you might insist on fudging it until the end of next year when we will have left deal or no deal, but the chances of us agreeing a Norway style deal have vanished. If you can't accept that, please do argue why I am wrong in my assertion.

Believe what you like, Gavyn if it makes you feel falsely ambivalent about the scale of defeat of you remoaners. The fact remains that Boris got shot of the surrender treaty backstop that the EU insisted could not be renegotiated and that he has quite a different and much stronger negotiating hand than he had before last Thursday. It surprised both LD and me that you don't appear to recognise that and the fact that now no deal is back on the table means that the EU will have to do better if they want to maintain a good relationship with their soon to be biggest and most important third party trading neighbour.