sadoldgit

This one goes into more detail. Is this what you were talking about? https://www.channel4.com/news/human-rights-investigators-raise-new-questions-on-gaza-hospital-explosion

Just been looking at some forensic reports about the projectile that struck the hospital car par last week. Despite Israeli claims that it was travelling from the SW direction it seems it actually came from the NE. Also the Israeli’s presented a recorded conversation from two alleged Hamas personnel claiming that one of their missiles had misfired. This recording appears to have been doctored, according to an independent forensic research outfit.

Sorry but I don’t see what your response has to do what I wrote. I’ll try again with an example. Last week the pro Palestinian March in London was joined by a number of Jewish people (I have no idea of their country of origin but that isn’t important here). They were very critical of Netanyahu’s latest moves which are harshly effecting innocent Palestinians. According to Duckhunter, if you criticise a Jew, that is anti-Semitism. They were critical of Netanyahu, who is Jewish. Does that make them anti-Semites? A simply yes or no will suffice. The basic issue here is censorship. You should be able to reasonably criticise, question and hold to account anybody or anything, especially governments, without the fear of being shut down as a hater, unless of course you are happy living in an Orwellian world. If you adhere to the internationally agreed rules you should have nothing to fear on the world stage concerning your own conduct. Terrorists do not which leaves them open to condemnation. When States do not either, they are in no position to cry foul if they are also condemned for their actions. Netanyahu and his government are currently facing a great deal of criticism for their response to the recent Hamas attacks and the handling of the Palestinian issues in general, not just from outside of Israel but also from within. That does not make the people making these criticisms anti-Semites. This really shouldn’t even be an issue but it does demonstrate perfectly how this particular card has been played given that it is even being discussed at length on a football forum.

No I am not struggling. You know exactly what point I am making. What would I call you? Maybe a Mossad Propaganda bot? Odd that you can’t spell Netanyahu’s name correctly. No, I am not that dopey. Once again you have either deliberately ignored my point or you haven’t understood it. Just for avoidance of doubt, is it now anti-Semitic to refer to Jewish people as Jews now? On a brighter note, two of the hostages taken by Hamas have been released.

Wonderful news! What was even better is that many Tory voters who didn’t feel that they could vote for anyone else decided to stay at home. They can do the nation a great service in staying at home for the general election too. A Tory voter on the radio this morning said that he didn’t vote this time because Sunak is too far to the left of centre!!! Somehow he has completely missed how far to the right the rest of the cabinet are. He then went on to say that he could never vote Labour and would probably vote for the Reform Party next time.

I mentioned “Jews” because Duckhunter’s definition of anti-Semtisism mentioned “Jews”. His exact words “I call people who criticise Jews anti-Semitic”. Now let’s look at a grown up definition from the Cambridge dictionary - “Hate or strong dislike of Jews or actions that express hate or dislike of Jews”. Surely even the most hard of thinking individual can see that there is a massive difference between the two. When we talk of Russian actions in the Ukraine it is a given that we are talking about Putin’s regime rather than individual Russians (although clearly his wishes are being carried out in the main by a number of his countrymen). When I talk about what is happening in the Middle East I assumed that most people would understand that I was talking about the Israeli state rather than Jewish people as individuals. Many Jewish people want reconciliation and peace and are not supportive of the current government. If I have not made that clear I will hold up my hands and apologise and hopefully this will make my position clear. I have absolutely no hatred or dislike of the Jewish people just as I have no hatred or dislike of Russian people. What happens and what has been clearly happening here is that if you level justifiable questions about the actions of the Israeli state, the defenders of their actions have no justifiable defence so their default position is to call out people as “anti-Semitic”. It was used to attack Corbyn no matter what he was talking about. It is all over social media when people try and discuss what has been going on in the last week in Israel and Gaza. It is so bad that even the leader of the opposition is absolutely terrified of saying anything that could remotely be misconstrued as being anti-Semitic. The BBC, who are clearly bending over backwards to try and tiptoe through the impartiality minefield, are being pressured by senior Israeli officials about their coverage with the spectre of claims of being labelled anti-Semitic hanging in the air. I have heard from ex Guardian colleagues that the Board of Deputies of British Jews is constantly in the ear of editor Kath Viner. Rumour has it that the sacking of cartoonist Steve Bell might be down to pressure from them. I don’t believe for one minute that anyone here hates Jews so let’s discuss what is actually happening and park the imaginary stuff which is purely a tactic to deflect from the real issues. Getting back to the issues, our PM, Rishi Sunak (or Doctor Death if you have been following the depressing Covid enquiry) made a speech yesterday with Netanyahu, looked at him and said “We hope you win”. Win? This is not a football match. Even if the campaign to flatten Gaza and kill every Hamas operative there, that will not be a “win”. All it will do is fuel more hatred, recruit more terrorists, justify further murderous attacks on innocent Jewish people. Destroy Hamas and its place will be taken by others. There is no win and a proper statesman would understand that. A “win” would be a ceasefire and an ending of the bloodshed and destruction, humanitarian aid being supplied to those entrapped in Gaza and moves from the UN and all Arab states to find a mutually acceptable compromise that will lead to peace in the area in the future. Sadly we still have to wait a year before we have a proper, grown up PM again but on the upside at least Trump is not involved (for now 🥴).

I’ll come to your bizarre notion that somehow Jewish people are above criticism just by dint of being Jews in a moment. I am surprised that I have to defend my post as I thought that the basic principle was self evident, that being that the mass murder and mass displacement of innocent men, women and children is indefensible, inexcusable and contravenes not just international law but any level of basic human decency. This is the same no matter who the victims are - Jews, Muslims, Arabs or any other religions, races, creeds. No one has the moral, divine or legal right to treat others like that, not even Jews. Genocide is genocide, no matter who the perpetrators are. Your assertion that anybody that criticises Jews is an anti-Semite is bizarre, even for you. On what level does being Jewish mean that you are not accountable for your actions without the person holding you to account being labelled an anti-Semite? Do you really not understand how ridiculous that is? By your logic anyone calling out Harvey Weinstein for being a rapist is an anti-Semite. If your view is that the Israeli government is entitled to do whatever it wants, where ever it wants to whoever it wants, fine. But don’t label people anti-Semites if they don’t agree with you. I don’t see any anti-Semites on this thread, but there might be a few Islamophobes. Stop conflating sympathy for innocent Palestinians with support for Hamas. What is a “fact” is that you are still stuck in the 1970’s and you often make Alf Garnett look “woke”. https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-arrested-at-jewish-us-capitol-rally-demanding-israeli-ceasefire-in-gaza/amp/ Anti-semites?

Given that complaints about bias reporting in this conflict are running about 50/50 so far I would say that the BBC are doing a pretty good job tip toeing through the various sensibilities of the viewing public. They have made the point several times that as an international broadcasting company they have to be seen as being impartial. Several countries (including some in Europe) do not refer to Hamas as a terrorist organisation. Every day in the news reports I have seen by the BBC they make the point that the UK government view Hamas as a terrorist organisation. Seems reasonable to me. Yes, the paedo stuff was pretty grim. Those of us around at the time will remember that a blind eye was turned to many things that are not acceptable today. Drink driving for one was rife back in the 70’s. You don’t have to go much further than the Benny Hill show to see that a chubby middle aged man chasing you women in their undies was prime time family entertainment. Did you boycott the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, David Bowie or John Peel? Members of those bands and the latter two were open about having sex with under aged girls at the time. It wasn’t just the BBC turning a blind eye. Only you would attempt to conflate the Daily Mail with the BBC 🙄. As you well know, one is owned by a very rich man who uses it to support his right wing ideology and the Tory government. The other is an independent public broadcasting service of world renown. I can’t believe for one minute that you have never watched or listened to any output from the BBC. Even if you don’t now, as pointed out, we all pay for lots of public services that we don’t use. I don’t see you complaining about that. This country would be a lot poorer without the BBC and if you don’t use any of its content then more fool you (but thanks for your selfless annual contributions so that the rest of us can).

I can’t be bothered to read all of the flood of posts from hypochondriac since he woke up but he seems to have outdone himself this time, even compared with his obsessive posts in the transfer thread. His hatred of all Muslims whether peace loving or extremists is well documented on this forum (I will never forget the “thank God I’m not married to a Muslim” post). If you listen to any intelligent, well balanced individual talking about these issues you will here nothing but an understanding that there are no good guys in this conflict. There is bloody minded intransigence on both sides driven by ultra nationalism, religious intolerance and historic conflict and those paying the price are totally innocent women and children on both sides, in their thousands. How you can condemn the murder of innocent people by Hamas terrorists but not condemn state murder carried out by the Israelis shows the same blinkered thinking that also labels people anti-Semitic when they are nothing of the sort. If things aren’t depressing enough, the world is in a mess, the Middle East is a tinder box and we send out our top diplomats, Rishi Sunak and James Cleverly. If there was a perfect example of how far the UK has sunk on the world stage, this is it.

Last night it was reported that the Israelis had hit a hospital in Gaza with the death toll in the many hundreds. Given that the Israelis have previous for bombing hospitals and that they are currently reducing vast swathes of Gaza to rubble there seemed no reason to disbelieve the reports. This morning we heard that it was the hospital car park that was hit and that it was possible that the damage could have been caused by a misfiring Hamas rocket. Clearly not as first reported then but the waters are being muddied from misinformation from both sides (perhaps the Israeli guy who said there is no crater should go to Specsavers). So the situation stands that we don’t know what happened with any certainty so we await further details. Seems a logical and mature way to deal with it. What is neither logical nor mature is to label anyone criticising the Israeli treatment of Palestinians over the years as anti-Semitic, as you do. Most people on this thread understand what is going on and what has been going on for decades, unlike you who have your colours firmly nailed to the Zionist mast and doesn’t seem to have a problem with women and children being murdered so long as they are Muslims.

Not if they are being supported by Iran and others. As Gandhi was supposed to have said, “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”. As horrendous as last weekends attack was, there is a much bigger game at stake here. Hamas and their enablers quite clearly want to destabilise the area and are looking to goad the Israeli’s into military action that will then escalate and potentially draw others into the conflict. I would assume the point of Biden’s meeting with the Israeli government is to try and hold them back from taking any action that will only result in more bloodshed and destruction. Most reasonable people understand that flattening Gaza is not the answer and will only cause more conflict. The Israeli’s are meant to have the best intelligence agencies in the world. Is it really beyond their capability to take out key Hamas targets without killing hundreds of innocent people in the process? It can’t be emphasised enough. The more women and children they murder, the more they are stoking up the hatred against them and the less chance their is for an eventual platform for working towards a peaceful settlement. If retaliation and retribution is all you can focus on, this will never end and could also end up with a far greater conflict than what we have already.

Is that all you have to say about it? Pretty much shows what kind of person you are (and those who think your post is funny). If that was Hamas blowing up an Israeli hospital would you be making pathetic jokes about it?

Hospital death toll now said to be 500. At what point does the death toll become “proportionate”?

Let’s hope that the situation is de-escalated quickly and a cease fire arranged so that we don’t have to put up with any more moronic, myopic, reactionary posts like this.

Better and more balanced speeches from both the PM and Starmer (especially Starmer) this afternoon in the House. Good to hear recognition that Hamas and not the Palestinians should be the focus of any blame, more emphasis about the humanitarian position for the innocent Palestinians in Gaza and that there is no place for hatred towards Jews or Muslims on our streets

Steve Bell has been sacked from The Guardian. For those who don’t know his work he is an excellent cartoonist and has been with the paper for 42 years. He provided a cartoon of Netanyahu wearing boxing gloves holding a scalpel and with a map of Gaza on his torso which he is poised to cut. The words above the cartoon say Residents of Gaza, get out of now. It is a reference to a similar cartoon that was used back in the 60’s about the Vietnam war using Lyndon Johnson with a map of Vietnam on his torso When asked why the cartoon had been withdrawn the explanation was something along the lines of, Jewish bloke, pound of flesh, antisemitic trope. According to Bell it has nothing to do with Shylock and the reference wouldn’t work in this context anyway. The whole point of the boxing gloves and the scalpel (so much for surgical strikes) has been completely ignored. It has absolutely nothing to do with a pound of flesh. I expect more from this newspaper but The Guardian in this instance is just as gutless as the rest right wing suck up press.

I don’t think there is any loathing of Israel in here. I don’t see any Palestinian fan boys either. Both comments are crass and helpful. I see plenty of people who appreciate that the situation is and has always been far from black and white. The provocation and retaliation has been going on and both sides are responsible for their actions and for the continuance of the murder of innocents and the destruction of property. Calling people Palestinian fan boys or anti-Semites when they recognise the basic fact that Israel is not the blameless victim here is the 6th form common room argument level post. To end this conflict BOTH sides have to recognise that the other has the right to a peaceful existence within agreed and well defined boundaries. The land grabs and the butchering has to end. Both sides bear responsibility here. Israel has all of the power and can destroy the Palestinian people’s with days of it wanted to. It is incumbent upon them to use their power responsively and proportionately. I think that most people can see that they are abusing their power at the moment, which is why sympathy levels are probably higher in many for the Palestinians. It has been pointed out many times that it is quite possible to be horrified and disgusted by the Hamas attacks on innocent civilians while also being horrified and disgusted at the murder of innocent Palestinians in Gaza. I can’t speak for everybody else but I would expect more people on this thread want an end to all of this and would like a 2 nation state with security guaranteed by the UN for both Israelis and Palestinians. Labelling people fanboys, anti-Semites and even c**ts falls into the same old one side good, the other side bad attitude that will only serve to add fuel to the already raging fire.

So perhaps Corbyn’s stance on the plight of the Palestinians was right all along? Those who used the anti-Semite label to shut him down should maybe rethink their position. Iran are ramping up their rhetoric and with Russian backing and the US firmly in the Israeli corner things could escalate fast unless cooler heads prevail. The Times columnist who said on Friday that we should all shut up and let Israel do what they want in retaliation for the Hamas attacks might want to reconsider what giving them a free hand in this could mean too. Yes, of course Israel has a right to defend itself. It doesn’t have the right to drag us all to the brink of a global war though. Hamas wanted this escalation all along and Netanyahu has played into their hands. The West needs to drop this blind standing by Israel stance and adopt a more neutral position. Pressure needs to be put on both sides to take a step back and instead of standing behind one or the other, the rest of the world through the auspices of the UN needs to be working to de-esculate rather than escalate the position.

What on earth are you talking about? I had already previously referenced the spike in anti-Semitic hate crimes in a previous post but I was specifically talking about the pro Palestinian yesterday. How did you manage to confuse the two? She might be short but she is gutsy. Her previous job was as a prison warden in Wandsworth nick. Like one or two others here you seem to be stuck in the 70’s. There are plenty of female police officers on the front line nowadays. If you made that comment to her face about cats up trees you’d end up wearing your testicles as a bow tie. Go and look at the news reports about the march. See anything about it all kicking off? 7 arrests amongst tens of thousands of people. Hardly a big deal was it? If you want to carry on playing silly buggers there are plenty of other threads that are more suitable. This is not the place for your childish WUMmery. https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/14/thousands-march-through-central-london-to-call-for-a-free-palestine

If you read my post properly I wasn’t suggesting that the marches should be banned, just that they could become a tinder point if we aren’t careful with our position (when I say “our” I am referring to the Government). Mrs SOG has been texting her bestie this morning whose daughter is an officer in the Met (not sure how, she is about 3ft tall). She was on duty on a pro Palestinian march yesterday which she said went off peacefully and was good natured where she was. Interesting to see those figures from the US. I assumed that they would be for the Israelis and strongly against the Muslims/Arabs. No surprise at the disparity between the Democrats and Republicans though. Reports of a missile strike on a convoy of trucks travelling to the south of Gaza as told to leave the north by the Israelis. Women and children killed. A relatively brief summary of how we got here. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/13/why-israel-palestine-conflict-history

No they are not, but that doesn’t stop the likes of Braverman conflating support for one with the other. It is quite possible that Hamas supporters will infiltrate pro Palestinian marches for there own end. There is one report tonight of one speaker at a rally using their terminology.

A sudden spike in anti-Semitic hate crimes, Jewish schools closed today over fears for the pupils’ safety, pro Palestinian marches planned for the weekend. Sunak and Starmer need to address this politically before things become even more polarised. It’s all very well saying that they stand with Israel but they also need to show more empathy with the innocents in Gaza. It really isn’t helping the Jewish communities here by ignoring the humanitarian catastrophe about to unfold in Gaza. There is clearly a lot of anger about it and it is already being directed at Jewish people here.

Because it isn’t true you very ignorant individual who persists on twisting things to suit his own agenda. Where would I be without taking information from many different sources and coming to some sort of conclusions? Probably I would be in an ignorant fog. I don’t have the level of understanding of the situation that someone like Rory Stewart has, that is why I listen to what he and others have to say. I don’t live in the Middle East which is why I listen to what people who live there have to say. I’m sorry that you have a problem with that. So where were we? Oh yes, tell me, is a murdered Jewish baby more abhorrent than a murdered Arab baby in your opinion? Last night I watched the BBC news (sorry I wasn’t actually there but it is 3000 miles away so I have to rely on the media for my news) and a dead child was pulled from the rubble. Apparently 447 children have been killed in Gaza so far. I wonder how many of those are Hamas members? I did hear it justified this morning by one person saying it is okay because some are probably children of Hamas members 😳 This morning I saw the picture in the Daily Telegraph of a dead baby murdered by Hamas over the weekend. My feelings about both are exactly the same and I expect that most people feel the same. I find it very sad that you feel the need to try and twist support for any innocent people into some kind of attempt to prove anti-Semitism or support for a bunch of barbaric extremists. Anyway, good to see that Egg has put you in your place. Try not falling into the usual trap that if you criticise the actions of the Israeli government that somehow you hate Jews. I thought you were smarter than that but you seem to have descended to the level of the usual suspects in this thread.

A person phoned an LBC phone in this morning to say that there had been hardly any support on some social media platforms that were swamped with Tricolours and support for France after the Batalan and other attacks on Paris. The same could be said for the number of Ukraine flags that appeared after the Russian invasion. The inference was that people didn’t care so much for dead Jews. I don’t think that is the case at all. All I have seen, heard and read since the weekend is horror and disgust at the massacres. The difference with this is that both sides of the conflict have been killing each other for decades and this is just one in a very long line of horror stories. As some of us have been saying, there is no good guy in this situation and both sides are responsible for where we are now. If it was that clear cut I’m sure we would see the Star of David all over Facebook. The FA have done the right thing for tomorrow night. How can you show support for a nation that at that point will be burying hundreds of innocent people in rubble or blowing them to atoms? The average age in Gaza is 17. You don’t have to be Carol Vorderman to work out that hundreds of victims are and will be children.

That is because Starmer has been bending over backwards to bury the slur that was driven by the right wing media. Where was the outrage against the Islamophobia from the Tories? I have been critical of the way that Corbyn dealt, or didnt deal, with the claims of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. I have also made the point that support for Palestinians is usually followed by claims of anti-Semitism. How much is deflection and how much is actual anti-Semitism, who knows? He said that “all attacks are wrong”. How has that been interpreted to mean that he excludes the Hamas attack in that statement? As for the barbaric murders of women, children and babies, in what world is it somehow seen as less bad to butcher them by high explosives than guns and knives? While people keep taking sides it will continue and escalate. World leaders should be calling for cool heads and peace. There has rightly been condemnation of the Hamas attacks but the retaliatory murder of innocents in Gaza should also be condemned. Starmer made a big deal about standing with Israel but ducked the issue of their breaking international law by cutting off power and supplies to innocent civilians in Gaza. As one person put it today, a hospital without electricity is a morgue.