sadoldgit

Hospital death toll now said to be 500. At what point does the death toll become “proportionate”?

Let’s hope that the situation is de-escalated quickly and a cease fire arranged so that we don’t have to put up with any more moronic, myopic, reactionary posts like this.

Better and more balanced speeches from both the PM and Starmer (especially Starmer) this afternoon in the House. Good to hear recognition that Hamas and not the Palestinians should be the focus of any blame, more emphasis about the humanitarian position for the innocent Palestinians in Gaza and that there is no place for hatred towards Jews or Muslims on our streets

Steve Bell has been sacked from The Guardian. For those who don’t know his work he is an excellent cartoonist and has been with the paper for 42 years. He provided a cartoon of Netanyahu wearing boxing gloves holding a scalpel and with a map of Gaza on his torso which he is poised to cut. The words above the cartoon say Residents of Gaza, get out of now. It is a reference to a similar cartoon that was used back in the 60’s about the Vietnam war using Lyndon Johnson with a map of Vietnam on his torso When asked why the cartoon had been withdrawn the explanation was something along the lines of, Jewish bloke, pound of flesh, antisemitic trope. According to Bell it has nothing to do with Shylock and the reference wouldn’t work in this context anyway. The whole point of the boxing gloves and the scalpel (so much for surgical strikes) has been completely ignored. It has absolutely nothing to do with a pound of flesh. I expect more from this newspaper but The Guardian in this instance is just as gutless as the rest right wing suck up press.

I don’t think there is any loathing of Israel in here. I don’t see any Palestinian fan boys either. Both comments are crass and helpful. I see plenty of people who appreciate that the situation is and has always been far from black and white. The provocation and retaliation has been going on and both sides are responsible for their actions and for the continuance of the murder of innocents and the destruction of property. Calling people Palestinian fan boys or anti-Semites when they recognise the basic fact that Israel is not the blameless victim here is the 6th form common room argument level post. To end this conflict BOTH sides have to recognise that the other has the right to a peaceful existence within agreed and well defined boundaries. The land grabs and the butchering has to end. Both sides bear responsibility here. Israel has all of the power and can destroy the Palestinian people’s with days of it wanted to. It is incumbent upon them to use their power responsively and proportionately. I think that most people can see that they are abusing their power at the moment, which is why sympathy levels are probably higher in many for the Palestinians. It has been pointed out many times that it is quite possible to be horrified and disgusted by the Hamas attacks on innocent civilians while also being horrified and disgusted at the murder of innocent Palestinians in Gaza. I can’t speak for everybody else but I would expect more people on this thread want an end to all of this and would like a 2 nation state with security guaranteed by the UN for both Israelis and Palestinians. Labelling people fanboys, anti-Semites and even c**ts falls into the same old one side good, the other side bad attitude that will only serve to add fuel to the already raging fire.

So perhaps Corbyn’s stance on the plight of the Palestinians was right all along? Those who used the anti-Semite label to shut him down should maybe rethink their position. Iran are ramping up their rhetoric and with Russian backing and the US firmly in the Israeli corner things could escalate fast unless cooler heads prevail. The Times columnist who said on Friday that we should all shut up and let Israel do what they want in retaliation for the Hamas attacks might want to reconsider what giving them a free hand in this could mean too. Yes, of course Israel has a right to defend itself. It doesn’t have the right to drag us all to the brink of a global war though. Hamas wanted this escalation all along and Netanyahu has played into their hands. The West needs to drop this blind standing by Israel stance and adopt a more neutral position. Pressure needs to be put on both sides to take a step back and instead of standing behind one or the other, the rest of the world through the auspices of the UN needs to be working to de-esculate rather than escalate the position.

What on earth are you talking about? I had already previously referenced the spike in anti-Semitic hate crimes in a previous post but I was specifically talking about the pro Palestinian yesterday. How did you manage to confuse the two? She might be short but she is gutsy. Her previous job was as a prison warden in Wandsworth nick. Like one or two others here you seem to be stuck in the 70’s. There are plenty of female police officers on the front line nowadays. If you made that comment to her face about cats up trees you’d end up wearing your testicles as a bow tie. Go and look at the news reports about the march. See anything about it all kicking off? 7 arrests amongst tens of thousands of people. Hardly a big deal was it? If you want to carry on playing silly buggers there are plenty of other threads that are more suitable. This is not the place for your childish WUMmery. https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/14/thousands-march-through-central-london-to-call-for-a-free-palestine

If you read my post properly I wasn’t suggesting that the marches should be banned, just that they could become a tinder point if we aren’t careful with our position (when I say “our” I am referring to the Government). Mrs SOG has been texting her bestie this morning whose daughter is an officer in the Met (not sure how, she is about 3ft tall). She was on duty on a pro Palestinian march yesterday which she said went off peacefully and was good natured where she was. Interesting to see those figures from the US. I assumed that they would be for the Israelis and strongly against the Muslims/Arabs. No surprise at the disparity between the Democrats and Republicans though. Reports of a missile strike on a convoy of trucks travelling to the south of Gaza as told to leave the north by the Israelis. Women and children killed. A relatively brief summary of how we got here. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/13/why-israel-palestine-conflict-history

No they are not, but that doesn’t stop the likes of Braverman conflating support for one with the other. It is quite possible that Hamas supporters will infiltrate pro Palestinian marches for there own end. There is one report tonight of one speaker at a rally using their terminology.

A sudden spike in anti-Semitic hate crimes, Jewish schools closed today over fears for the pupils’ safety, pro Palestinian marches planned for the weekend. Sunak and Starmer need to address this politically before things become even more polarised. It’s all very well saying that they stand with Israel but they also need to show more empathy with the innocents in Gaza. It really isn’t helping the Jewish communities here by ignoring the humanitarian catastrophe about to unfold in Gaza. There is clearly a lot of anger about it and it is already being directed at Jewish people here.

Because it isn’t true you very ignorant individual who persists on twisting things to suit his own agenda. Where would I be without taking information from many different sources and coming to some sort of conclusions? Probably I would be in an ignorant fog. I don’t have the level of understanding of the situation that someone like Rory Stewart has, that is why I listen to what he and others have to say. I don’t live in the Middle East which is why I listen to what people who live there have to say. I’m sorry that you have a problem with that. So where were we? Oh yes, tell me, is a murdered Jewish baby more abhorrent than a murdered Arab baby in your opinion? Last night I watched the BBC news (sorry I wasn’t actually there but it is 3000 miles away so I have to rely on the media for my news) and a dead child was pulled from the rubble. Apparently 447 children have been killed in Gaza so far. I wonder how many of those are Hamas members? I did hear it justified this morning by one person saying it is okay because some are probably children of Hamas members 😳 This morning I saw the picture in the Daily Telegraph of a dead baby murdered by Hamas over the weekend. My feelings about both are exactly the same and I expect that most people feel the same. I find it very sad that you feel the need to try and twist support for any innocent people into some kind of attempt to prove anti-Semitism or support for a bunch of barbaric extremists. Anyway, good to see that Egg has put you in your place. Try not falling into the usual trap that if you criticise the actions of the Israeli government that somehow you hate Jews. I thought you were smarter than that but you seem to have descended to the level of the usual suspects in this thread.

A person phoned an LBC phone in this morning to say that there had been hardly any support on some social media platforms that were swamped with Tricolours and support for France after the Batalan and other attacks on Paris. The same could be said for the number of Ukraine flags that appeared after the Russian invasion. The inference was that people didn’t care so much for dead Jews. I don’t think that is the case at all. All I have seen, heard and read since the weekend is horror and disgust at the massacres. The difference with this is that both sides of the conflict have been killing each other for decades and this is just one in a very long line of horror stories. As some of us have been saying, there is no good guy in this situation and both sides are responsible for where we are now. If it was that clear cut I’m sure we would see the Star of David all over Facebook. The FA have done the right thing for tomorrow night. How can you show support for a nation that at that point will be burying hundreds of innocent people in rubble or blowing them to atoms? The average age in Gaza is 17. You don’t have to be Carol Vorderman to work out that hundreds of victims are and will be children.

That is because Starmer has been bending over backwards to bury the slur that was driven by the right wing media. Where was the outrage against the Islamophobia from the Tories? I have been critical of the way that Corbyn dealt, or didnt deal, with the claims of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. I have also made the point that support for Palestinians is usually followed by claims of anti-Semitism. How much is deflection and how much is actual anti-Semitism, who knows? He said that “all attacks are wrong”. How has that been interpreted to mean that he excludes the Hamas attack in that statement? As for the barbaric murders of women, children and babies, in what world is it somehow seen as less bad to butcher them by high explosives than guns and knives? While people keep taking sides it will continue and escalate. World leaders should be calling for cool heads and peace. There has rightly been condemnation of the Hamas attacks but the retaliatory murder of innocents in Gaza should also be condemned. Starmer made a big deal about standing with Israel but ducked the issue of their breaking international law by cutting off power and supplies to innocent civilians in Gaza. As one person put it today, a hospital without electricity is a morgue.

You are sounding more like Turkish everyday but well done for taking someone’s position and changing it to suit your own agenda. I will say it one more time. I don’t condone the killing of innocents by both sides. The situation is incredibly complex and I am not taking a “side”. I believe that both “sides” have the right to exist and should make greater efforts to learn to live alongside each other. You chose to twist this and make out that it is somehow anti-Semitic and that, somehow I have more sympathy for murdered Palestinians than I have for murdered Jews. You are wrong and deluded. It is exactly what people with your blinkered view do to Corbyn. The bloke couldn’t be more of a pacifist and calls out terrorist acts whoever carry them out. But because he believes that the conflict here is being made worse by the Israeli government’s treatment of the Palestinians that makes him an anti-Semite. No doubt those who have taken the decision not to light up the Wembley arch tomorrow with the Israeli flag will also be labelled anti-Semites in your black and white world. If you want to play this game it works both ways and your Islamophobia and hatred of Muslims is showing in your posts. Mr Lovely? What an absolutely stupid thing to say. Why would you take the piss out of those trying to show some kind of humanity in an inhuman situation?

My wife asked the question about the conflict in general rather than this particular instance and I replied that I thought that they were both the bad guys. I’m don’t see that gunmen breaking in to houses and killing innocent women, children and babies is any different to killing innocent women, children and babies by raining bombs and missiles on their heads. I guess you can kill more people with a bomb or a middle than you can a gun though so at least one side has a more efficient way of killing its enemies. Yet again we get the deflection of any criticism of the current Israeli government’s action as being “anti-Semitic”. What absolute rubbish. As as has been said, it is entirely possible to be sympathetic and supportive of the Palestinians position (not Hamas) and not be anti-Semitic (like Corbyn). I have heard many Jewish people on radio phone ins criticising Netanyahu and his government - does that make them anti-Semites? There is an excellent article on Twitter written by a Jewish person, Isaac Saul, which covers the history of the conflict going back centuries (the Jews, Muslims and Arabs all come from the Canaanites so share the same DNA). He spares neither side and lays the blame for the latest killings at the door of both sides. Both sides need to compromise. The Israelis need to be guaranteed safety in the previously agreed lands and they need to get out of the occupied territories. If they don’t make the effort to live together peacefully this will only get worse. I get the anger over the recent atrocities carried out by Hamas although it is not an easy watch seeing the destruction of Gaza either. When you look at the figures produced by the UN of people killed or seriously injured in the 13 years between 2008 and 2020 - Palestinians 120,286 Israelis 5,887. - it gives you some idea of which side has suffered more from the conflict. This has absolutely nothing to do with anti-Semitism. It is a fact. Perhaps we can agree that the lives of innocent peace loving Jews are worth exactly the same as innocent peace loving Palestinians?

We certainly can but it was some misjudgement though! I was more bothered about his post saying that even if the rumours were true, we shouldn’t be worried about it any more as he was dead!!! Not sure that he victims felt the same way and it is a strange attitude to have when you are looking after young children as he was doing, presumably as job. How would the parents have felt knowing their little darlings were being cared for by a someone with such a laid back attitude to paedophiles? Also there a few other bothersome posts from the resident misogynist who didn’t seem to have a problem with older men taking sexual advantage of impressionable young girls (“slags”). It was almost like going back to the 1970’s in a Time Machine other than it was only 10 years ago! What I didn’t know at the time was that Ray Teret, Savile’s “adopted son” and sidekick, was jailed for life for rape and sexual assault not long after Savile died (and died in jail). Maybe that gave Savile’s victims some sense of justice?

I don’t think that anyone is saying that what happened this weekend isn’t abhorrent and that the actions of Hamas are excusable. These things do not happen in a vacuum though and atrocities have been committed by both sides over the years. Neither side can claim the moral high ground in this conflict. I agree that we need to stand back and let the UN get on with it. It will only breed more would be martyrs who will look for soft targets on the streets of cities and towns of countries who throw their lot in with Israel (who already have all the help they need through the US).

So we are now being told that the things Sunak said he would do last week are now only “illustrations” of things that could be done 🤔 Great speech today from Starmer who looks more like our PM in waiting every week and is certainly the grown up in the room when compared with Sunak. Labour have had an excellent conference and look energised and ready to get on with the changes we need as opposed to the busted flush that is the Tory party. The election can’t come soon enough.

Going back eleven years and there are some really embarrassing posts from some current posters there. Egg comes out with credit but a few others should hold their heads in shame.

Watching the horrific news reports over the weekend, Mrs SOG asked me, “Who are the baddies in this?”. All I could think of as a reply is that both are. Starmer made the point that it has wrecked any chance of peace in the forceable future. If it is true that Iran are behind this as a part of derailing the efforts to normalise relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia then it has worked at the expense of the lives hundreds of innocent civilians. I can’t agree more, we should keep well out of it both politically and militarily.

I have spent a couple of hours this morning clearing up the glass and debris from a collision at our crossroads last night. It is a dangerous junction on a blind bend and accidents happen frequently. There will be a fatality at some point and that is the reason that people like me pick up clipboards and run speed checks, so that people like Duckhunter, who has had a dig at us, can get from A to B more safely. We have been asking for a mini roundabout for some time but the council won’t do anything about speed calming measures until people die. We did a speed survey as part of a wider survey amongst the villages about spending parish council funds on an electric speed sign which flashes up your speed as you approach it. We bought the sign and it does help slow traffic down through the village, but we could only afford 1 so have to rotate it around the 4 approach roads, which isn’t ideal. A 20 mph limit would certainly help here but as has been said, it won’t stop the selfish drivers who think speed limits do not apply to them. At least it is raising the issue of road safety in residential areas and anything that saves lives and serious injuries has to be a good thing, doesn’t it?

There were reports recently of a major peace deal in the offing but that seems to be have been wide of the mark. It is only going to escalate now. Grim news.

If you bothered to listen the people who understand the wider implications of scrapping it now taking a different view is not childish at all, in fact it being very mature. There is clearly not right or wrong. A decision was made to build it and that has been supported by both main parties over the years. Given that so much depends on the project being completed (go and look at all of the multiple spin off benefits if you haven’t already) and you will see that it is not unreasonable for people to take a contrary view to Sunak (who has not had the decency to take the argument to the House before telling us this is what is happening). Personally I don’t give a stuff about HS2, but given that Starmer has no idea how much extra it would cost to resurrect the project it would be incredibly foolish to state categorically that he would do so now. As it is he has left the door open. A very mature thing to do in the circumstances and probably the only thing he could reasonably do.

But he didn’t say that he wouldn’t reverse it. Why don’t you listen? He said he couldn’t commit to it which is a completely different thing. As we speak contracts are being terminated and the previously acquired land being put up for sale. It isn’t as easy as saying yes we will do it. You keep talking about others being confused but you are the one who doesn’t seem to have a grasp on what is going on. Show us the quote where Starmer says he won’t fund it. What he said was that Sunak has taken a “wrecking ball” yo the project which means that there won’t be a project left to revive once he gets into Downing Street!

I think they have changed that decision now and it will eventually use Euston. Correction - it will only go to Euston if the vast majority of the cost is provided by private funding 🙄 Three reasons why this country has gone down the pan:- Margaret Thatcher, Nigel Farage & Boris Johnson. Lord Duckhunter has backed all three.