Chopping & Changing ??

[eurosaint]

No successful team in history changes it's system/formation game after game nor do the players play in different positions week by week !!!

A few examples from the last 3 matches by SFC :

James RB/CM

Wotton CB/CM

Surman LB/CM/LM

Cork RB/CB

McG CF/LM/RM

BWP RW/LM

Dyer RM/LM

I accept that when things are going wrong you have to reassess but what is happening at the moment is more a case of 'total confusion' than 'total football' !!

My view is that we we need a settled formation, that each player has a nominated position and when injured or suspended another comes in to fill that position !

It may be a slightly old fashioned opinion but I strongly feel that ongoing disruption is killing us !

Rant over !

[John B]

No successful team in history changes it's system/formation game after game nor do the players play in different positions week by week !!!

A few examples from the last 3 matches by SFC :

James RB/CM

Wotton CB/CM

Surman LB/CM/LM

Cork RB/CB

McG CF/LM/RM

BWP RW/LM

Dyer RM/LM

I accept that when things are going wrong you have to reassess but what is happening at the moment is more a case of 'total confusion' than 'total football' !!

My view is that we we need a settled formation, that each player has a nominated position and when injured or suspended another comes in to fill that position !

It may be a slightly old fashioned opinion but I strongly feel that ongoing disruption is killing us !

Rant over !

 

No it is not a rant

 

I totally agree

[Whitey Grandad]

You are right to rant. The only positive thing to come out of last Saturday was a clean sheet. Once you have stopped the rot then it is time to stabilise and the one thing that you must have is continuity.

[loughborough_saint]

Yeah, JP really needs to be brought to task on this! Why didn'the prevent Svenson and Thomas from getting injured? Why didn't he stop lanchashire from getting sent off - this meant that Cork was playing centre back, but then Lolyd James selfishly went and got himself hurt which meant wotton had to move back to centre back with Cork at right back. Wottons move means that the midfield has to change and so he tries Surman in there (after all this is what the good old folks on the message board have been saying all along!!)

 

In amongst all that Lee Holmes fails to reliase what a predicament we are in and goes and allows a QPR player to bust his knee in which means we need to make yet morew changes in midfield. So on comes Dyer, who JP then realises is crap so tried BWP - he looks bright enough as a sub against Ipswich so gets his chance against Barnsley. (By the way Spiderman has picked up a knock amongst all this)

 

So - on to Rotherham and that pesky Svenson now decides hes fit enough so he comes back in - Wotton moves back to Cm (where Gillett has picked up a knock so both he and spiderman are out) Cork stays RB and James is fit again so he slots into the CM position which he favours to RB where he was just covering anyway! Holmes is looking like a long term absence so BWP stays in.

 

As for the strikers... JP ridoucolously seems to be trying out various options to see which one works best! Unbelievable!

 

Chopping and changing is just part of football im afraid gentlemen! I'm sure if JP was able to field a settled solid side he would do! Whats more people are moaning that the side is changing but if he put out the same team over and over and they weren't performing then you would all be moaning that he doesn't try and change things! damned if you do damned if you dont!

[Whitey Grandad]

Yeah, JP really needs to be brought to task on this! Why didn'the prevent Svenson and Thomas from getting injured? Why didn't he stop lanchashire from getting sent off - this meant that Cork was playing centre back, but then Lolyd James selfishly went and got himself hurt which meant wotton had to move back to centre back with Cork at right back. Wottons move means that the midfield has to change and so he tries Surman in there (after all this is what the good old folks on the message board have been saying all along!!)

 

In amongst all that Lee Holmes fails to reliase what a predicament we are in and goes and allows a QPR player to bust his knee in which means we need to make yet morew changes in midfield. So on comes Dyer, who JP then realises is crap so tried BWP - he looks bright enough as a sub against Ipswich so gets his chance against Barnsley. (By the way Spiderman has picked up a knock amongst all this)

 

So - on to Rotherham and that pesky Svenson now decides hes fit enough so he comes back in - Wotton moves back to Cm (where Gillett has picked up a knock so both he and spiderman are out) Cork stays RB and James is fit again so he slots into the CM position which he favours to RB where he was just covering anyway! Holmes is looking like a long term absence so BWP stays in.

 

As for the strikers... JP ridoucolously seems to be trying out various options to see which one works best! Unbelievable!

 

Chopping and changing is just part of football im afraid gentlemen! I'm sure if JP was able to field a settled solid side he would do! Whats more people are moaning that the side is changing but if he put out the same team over and over and they weren't performing then you would all be moaning that he doesn't try and change things! damned if you do damned if you dont!

So who has been injured since Saturday? There's and old saying in football: 'nothing beats a settled team'

[eurosaint]

Yeah, JP really needs to be brought to task on this! Why didn'the prevent Svenson and Thomas from getting injured? Why didn't he stop lanchashire from getting sent off - this meant that Cork was playing centre back, but then Lolyd James selfishly went and got himself hurt which meant wotton had to move back to centre back with Cork at right back. Wottons move means that the midfield has to change and so he tries Surman in there (after all this is what the good old folks on the message board have been saying all along!!)

 

In amongst all that Lee Holmes fails to reliase what a predicament we are in and goes and allows a QPR player to bust his knee in which means we need to make yet morew changes in midfield. So on comes Dyer, who JP then realises is crap so tried BWP - he looks bright enough as a sub against Ipswich so gets his chance against Barnsley. (By the way Spiderman has picked up a knock amongst all this)

 

So - on to Rotherham and that pesky Svenson now decides hes fit enough so he comes back in - Wotton moves back to Cm (where Gillett has picked up a knock so both he and spiderman are out) Cork stays RB and James is fit again so he slots into the CM position which he favours to RB where he was just covering anyway! Holmes is looking like a long term absence so BWP stays in.

 

As for the strikers... JP ridoucolously seems to be trying out various options to see which one works best! Unbelievable!

 

Chopping and changing is just part of football im afraid gentlemen! I'm sure if JP was able to field a settled solid side he would do! Whats more people are moaning that the side is changing but if he put out the same team over and over and they weren't performing then you would all be moaning that he doesn't try and change things! damned if you do damned if you dont!

 

I do not dispute the fact that you will get injuries/suspensions but wholesale positional and formation changes are disruptive and means that each player has to adjust not only to a different task but to having different colleagues alongside him !

I do not believe that the quality of players that we currently have are able to adapt in this way and particularly not game by game!

I feel that I am being constructive here as I have offered a solution to the problem and have certainly not been personal nor destructive (I did not suggest bringing JP to task as you mention)!

[Saint_clark]

Imagine how much more confusing it will be once Pulis and Gasmi recover.

[Wes Tender]

But surely this ability for players to be comfortable in a variety of positions and indeed to be able to interchange even during the course of a game is the very essence of total football that JP is supposed to be bringing us.

 

What a shame that it takes really skillful and intelligent players to play that way and that we don't have many with those abilities.

[loughborough_saint]

So who has been injured since Saturday? There's and old saying in football: 'nothing beats a settled team'

 

Gillet injured - he goes out and Svenson comes in - this moves wotton to midfield. Lloyd james also comes in with pekhart dropping to the bench.

2 changes - 1 forced 1 tactical

 

There are lots of old sayings - very few of them have any relevance to real life.

[SoccerMom]

And we also have to remember that this was the fourth of seven games in three weeks. He simply couldn't field the same side for every one of those games - there was always going to be a bit of change.

 

I'm not saying I'm happy - I couldn't even bear to switch on the radio or the computer last night because something told me we were going to get tonked, and I'm glad I didn't. And just acknowledging that JP's got an very hard job doesn't make it better.

 

As was said by someone else on another thread, one of the biggest jobs he has now is to not lose the dressing room. I just hope that the players themselves can accept some responsibility for what's happening without losing too much confidence. They have all shown themselves to be good enough footballers, even the novices who had got to the top level of the reserves and had shown themselves deserving of a chance. Now they just have to go out and work harder on converting their obvious skills into match success. And, of course, if they're prepared to work, then that's where intelligent (and tough) coaching comes in.

[eurosaint]

Gillet injured - he goes out and Svenson comes in - this moves wotton to midfield. Lloyd james also comes in with pekhart dropping to the bench.

2 changes - 1 forced 1 tactical

There are lots of old sayings - very few of them have any relevance to real life.

 

Put another way - CM is injured : New CB comes in, old CB moves to CM, RB comes back as RM, CF is replaced by RM.

Defence disrupted, Midfield disrupted, Attack disrupted !

I realise that I am perhaps oversimplifying the issue but the point is - why does one enforced change have to result in a complete re-hash of all parts of the team ?

[Whitey Grandad]

Gillet injured - he goes out and Svenson comes in - this moves wotton to midfield. Lloyd james also comes in with pekhart dropping to the bench.

2 changes - 1 forced 1 tactical

 

There are lots of old sayings - very few of them have any relevance to real life.

There speaks the voice of youth!

[eurosaint]

And we also have to remember that this was the fourth of seven games in three weeks. He simply couldn't field the same side for every one of those games - there was always going to be a bit of change.I'm not saying I'm happy - I couldn't even bear to switch on the radio or the computer last night because something told me we were going to get tonked, and I'm glad I didn't. And just acknowledging that JP's got an very hard job doesn't make it better.

 

As was said by someone else on another thread, one of the biggest jobs he has now is to not lose the dressing room. I just hope that the players themselves can accept some responsibility for what's happening without losing too much confidence. They have all shown themselves to be good enough footballers, even the novices who had got to the top level of the reserves and had shown themselves deserving of a chance. Now they just have to go out and work harder on converting their obvious skills into match success. And, of course, if they're prepared to work, then that's where intelligent (and tough) coaching comes in.

 

My point is not that there will never be a need to alternate players for whatever reason.

What I am advocating is that we have a settled formation, in order that when other players come in they have some idea as to what they will be required to do and have some idea of whom they are likely to be alongside !

[Whitey Grandad]

My point is not that there will never be a need to alternate players for whatever reason.

What I am advocating is that we have a settled formation, in order that when other players come in they have some idea as to what they will be required to do and have some idea of whom they are likely to be alongside !

That's the system at the 'big' clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal. The club has a system that it likes to play to and every player is schooled into playing a role within that system. Then when they come into the team it minimises disruption.

[SoccerMom]

That's the system at the 'big' clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal. The club has a system that it likes to play to and every player is schooled into playing a role within that system. Then when they come into the team it minimises disruption.

 

That would be OK if there were a big enough, fit enough, squad. But it looks like the squad has been put together so that each person, give or take a few specialist players like Svennson and John, is there to cover at least two positions.

 

So does it seem that the optimum is to have three or more for each place (given that we have been operating without three dedicated CBs for the last three games) - expensive; or to have players that can cover different positions - risky?

 

As there is no money and little experience, it's Hobson's choice, if you ask me.

[eurosaint]

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/home/?page_id=8719

 

We have 29 players in the 1st team squad.

 

3 x GK (all fit)

9 x defenders (1 unfit)

10 x midfielders (3 unfit)

7 x attackers (all fit)

 

I really don't see why we have to have wholesale changes game after game !

[madruss]

But surely this ability for players to be comfortable in a variety of positions and indeed to be able to interchange even during the course of a game is the very essence of total football that JP is supposed to be bringing us.

 

What a shame that it takes really skillful and intelligent players to play that way and that we don't have many with those abilities.

 

Well quite!

 

You've hit the nail on the head there. There's not so much wrong with the system as long as you have the quality of players to execute it.

 

For example, DMG and BWP are not intelligent / disciplined enough to play on the wing and this cost us dearly on Saturday. I only hope that JP doesn't try them in wide positions again (not that he's got many options at the moment.)

[SoccerMom]

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/home/?page_id=8719

 

We have 29 players in the 1st team squad.

 

3 x GK (all fit)

9 x defenders (1 unfit)

10 x midfielders (3 unfit)

7 x attackers (all fit)

 

I really don't see why we have to have wholesale changes game after game !

 

Not like me to argue, but...

 

how many of those are experienced players, so that we can have the mix of youth and experience that everyone keeps talking about? Not so many.

 

GK 2/3 (ish - don't really think of Bart as experienced)

DF 3/9 (1 of which is long-term out, 1 of which can only play 1 game in 4)

MF 7/10 (3 of which are injured, 1 of which is not playing for whatever reason)

ST 3/7

 

And if you are talking about senior leadership, even fewer.

 

GK 1

DF 3 (1 of which is long-term out, 1 of which can only play 1 game in 4)

MF 3 (1 of which is injured, 1 of which is not playing for whatever reason)

ST 1

 

I make that 8 out of 29. Less than a third of the squad, and only half of those are fit to play.

 

Doesn't look good, does it.

[SoccerMom]

Well quite!

 

You've hit the nail on the head there. There's not so much wrong with the system as long as you have the quality of players to execute it.

 

For example, DMG and BWP are not intelligent / disciplined enough to play on the wing and this cost us dearly on Saturday. I only hope that JP doesn't try them in wide positions again (not that he's got many options at the moment.)

 

Agree almost completely. Although I still think that the squad has real quality, it's just (mostly) really uncontrolled. Like pedigree puppies.

[eurosaint]

Not like me to argue, but...

how many of those are experienced players, so that we can have the mix of youth and experience that everyone keeps talking about? Not so many.

 

GK 2/3 (ish - don't really think of Bart as experienced)

DF 3/9 (1 of which is long-term out, 1 of which can only play 1 game in 4)

MF 7/10 (3 of which are injured, 1 of which is not playing for whatever reason)

ST 3/7

 

And if you are talking about senior leadership, even fewer.

 

GK 1

DF 3 (1 of which is long-term out, 1 of which can only play 1 game in 4)

MF 3 (1 of which is injured, 1 of which is not playing for whatever reason)

ST 1

 

I make that 8 out of 29. Less than a third of the squad, and only half of those are fit to play.

 

Doesn't look good, does it.

I am not arguing with you Mom, honest I'm not !

I think that we basically agree that whatever we do it ain't gonna be perfect cos we just ain't got the tools for the job!

No it doesn't look good, it sure doesn't !

Ps. Mom is always right !

[SoccerMom]

:D

I am not arguing with you Mom, honest I'm not !

I think that we basically agree that whatever we do it ain't gonna be perfect cos we just ain't got the tools for the job!

No it doesn't look good, it sure doesn't !

Ps. Mom is always right !

 

And remember, as has been said in my family for a long, long time:

If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

[eurosaint]

:D

 

 

And remember, as has been said in my family for a long, long time:

If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

 

Bl**dy women !!!

[Fowllyd]

Agree almost completely. Although I still think that the squad has real quality, it's just (mostly) really uncontrolled. Like pedigree puppies.

 

You mean they get all caught up in rolls of toilet paper, then drag it about all over the pitch?

[SoccerMom]

You mean they get all caught up in rolls of toilet paper, then drag it about all over the pitch?

 

Good idea - might be more entertaining!

[saintbletch]

Yeah, JP really needs to be brought to task on this! Why didn'the prevent Svenson and Thomas from getting injured? Why didn't he stop lanchashire from getting sent off - this meant that Cork was playing centre back, but then Lolyd James selfishly went and got himself hurt which meant wotton had to move back to centre back with Cork at right back. Wottons move means that the midfield has to change and so he tries Surman in there (after all this is what the good old folks on the message board have been saying all along!!)

 

In amongst all that Lee Holmes fails to reliase what a predicament we are in and goes and allows a QPR player to bust his knee in which means we need to make yet morew changes in midfield. So on comes Dyer, who JP then realises is crap so tried BWP - he looks bright enough as a sub against Ipswich so gets his chance against Barnsley. (By the way Spiderman has picked up a knock amongst all this)

 

So - on to Rotherham and that pesky Svenson now decides hes fit enough so he comes back in - Wotton moves back to Cm (where Gillett has picked up a knock so both he and spiderman are out) Cork stays RB and James is fit again so he slots into the CM position which he favours to RB where he was just covering anyway! Holmes is looking like a long term absence so BWP stays in.

 

As for the strikers... JP ridoucolously seems to be trying out various options to see which one works best! Unbelievable!

 

Chopping and changing is just part of football im afraid gentlemen! I'm sure if JP was able to field a settled solid side he would do! Whats more people are moaning that the side is changing but if he put out the same team over and over and they weren't performing then you would all be moaning that he doesn't try and change things! damned if you do damned if you dont!

 

A pretty good analysis, and a well thought out response (if a little sarcastic). I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle though. He may have been forced to rotate as you've described above but I don't think JP is concerned by rotating the squad.

 

I think he believes that the players should be able to play in different positions. I think he believes that the only way to bring on the youth is to continually blood them in competitive games which means the side will change. I don't think he has any fear of putting a youngster like Fish Mills at left back against Barnsley. Again I think it's a key part of the "company's" plan.

 

Whilst I can understand this in a well performing team, we haven't yet found the system and or players that really gel. The issue I have with JP is the CM position which I think is so key for us. I don't feel that he respects the importance of stability in that pairing.

 

I thought Spiderman and Gillett were forming a really good partnership early on and it "seems" to me that he doesn't play them when given the chance. I could be wrong and it could be down to injuries or other circumstances. I also remember him taking off both CMs (Gillett and Spiderman) in the game at Blackpool at the same time, after which we seemed to be clueless and led to many people on here asking if Jan had a plan B.

 

That said, I firmly believe that it's early days for us. The greater concern for me is dropping heads and lack of effort / commitment.