Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 http://today.yougov.co.uk/sites/today.yougov.co.uk/files/YG-Archives-Pol-FabianSociety-EUCoop-050111.pdf Here's the poll by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junction 9 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12657286 The Barnsley by election result is not being heeded by the Tories at their peril. UKIP are the biggest threat the Tories face without a doubt because UKIP voters are mainly ( but by no means exclusively) disenfranchised Tory voters. They might never gain power, but they'll stop the Tories ever governing again IMO and for that reason we will see the Tories FORCED to adopt a more eurosceptic stance in the future. What exactly are you trying to say here? You say UKIP will never get elected, yet will stop the Tories ever governing again. Who does that leave us with in power then? Labour I assume. Is that honestly the situation you want to develop when it comes to the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 What exactly are you trying to say here? You say UKIP will never get elected, yet will stop the Tories ever governing again. Who does that leave us with in power then? Labour I assume. Is that honestly the situation you want to develop when it comes to the EU? It is a sacrifice worth making because in the end the Tories will have to neutralise UKIP and they can only do this by adopting UKIP policy. Like the 70 Tory MP's who have defied Cameron everyone who votes UKIP is acting with conviction and is sadly helping Labour, but with an eye to medium term change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 It is a sacrifice worth making because in the end the Tories will have to neutralise UKIP and they can only do this by adopting UKIP policy. Like the 70 Tory MP's who have defied Cameron everyone who votes UKIP is acting with conviction and is sadly helping Labour, but with an eye to medium term change. I think the Conservatives would lose more votes than they gain by adopting UKIP's policies. I think that when it comes down to it, most people want to be in Europe, but perhaps not with the current arrangements. I support more integration though. i makes a good point today saying that those who want us to be in the single market, but not the EU are not considering everything. In we want to remain in the single market, other EU countries would demand we abide by the same rules as them, so in effect not much would change except our influence on the world stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junction 9 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 It is a sacrifice worth making because in the end the Tories will have to neutralise UKIP and they can only do this by adopting UKIP policy. Like the 70 Tory MP's who have defied Cameron everyone who votes UKIP is acting with conviction and is sadly helping Labour, but with an eye to medium term change. So the Tories will govern again, but with a different agenda? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Saintsandy, you do realise that with your desire for more integration you are in the minority right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Saintsandy, you do realise that with your desire for more integration you are in the minority right? Yes, I am aware of this, but it makes my opinion no less valid, especially as that is the way Europe will go eventually in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 So the Tories will govern again, but with a different agenda? Yes. In the future (maybe 2020-30) I believe they will be forced to adopt a more UKIP stance to win in the necessary marginals that UKIP will make unwinable. Cameron is currently casting the seeds for the demise of the Conservative Party and he is a fool for doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Yes. In the future (maybe 2020-30) I believe they will be forced to adopt a more UKIP stance to win in the necessary marginals that UKIP will make unwinable. Cameron is currently casting the seeds for the demise of the Conservative Party and he is a fool for doing it. I don't know about that. The conservatives will be in power for a term or two, and then Labour will come back in for a term or two... that's how our democracy works. Nothing changes much in who rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 I think the Conservatives would lose more votes than they gain by adopting UKIP's policies. I think that when it comes down to it, most people want to be in Europe, but perhaps not with the current arrangements. I support more integration though. i makes a good point today saying that those who want us to be in the single market, but not the EU are not considering everything. In we want to remain in the single market, other EU countries would demand we abide by the same rules as them, so in effect not much would change except our influence on the world stage. Whilst here in Britain we are devolving power to Scotland NI and Wales, the European superstate is sucking in more power. The two acts are at odds with each other would you not agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 I don't know about that. The conservatives will be in power for a term or two, and then Labour will come back in for a term or two... that's how our democracy works. Nothing changes much in who rules. I don't like it, but I would prefer that than letting the lib dems get power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Whilst here in Britain we are devolving power to Scotland NI and Wales, the European superstate is sucking in more power. The two acts are at odds with each other would you not agree? Not really, they are separate issues. In the future, there will probably be a Europe like the USA where each state retains a large degree of say over its laws and economic/social policy, but some stuff like Military etc is devised on a Europe wide basis. To be honest, it wouldn't be that much different from the status quo. For example the UK would never be able to start military action these days without NATO/USA support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 I don't like it, but I would prefer that than letting the lib dems get power. The Liberal Democrats aren't that bad. They are no worse than the other two parties. They aren't fascist or communist or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 (edited) I don't know about that. The conservatives will be in power for a term or two, and then Labour will come back in for a term or two... that's how our democracy works. Nothing changes much in who rules. People are now more educated and don't simply vote for the red rosette or the blue rosette. New Labour V Blue Labour is not a choice. Both Socialists and Right Wing Conservatives no longer have a party in Labour or the Conservatives and they are increasingly seeking small parties that represent what they believe in. Times are changing and this is exactly what is needed. Edited 24 October, 2011 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 People are now more educated and don't simply vote for the red rosette or the blue rosette. New Labour V Blue Labour is not a choice. Both Socialists and Right Wing Conservatives no longer have a party in Labour of the Conservatives and they are increasingly seeking small parties that represent what they believe in. Times are changing and this is exactly what is needed. Oh for sure, we are much more pluralist than we once were. 95% of people used to vote for the top two parties, now only 65% do. That is why FPTP is such a shambles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 People are now more educated and don't simply vote for the red rosette or the blue rosette. New Labour V Blue Labour is not a choice. Both Socialists and Right Wing Conservatives no longer have a party in Labour of the Conservatives and they are increasingly seeking small parties that represent what they believe in. Times are changing and this is exactly what is needed. Shame the mong millions rejected a voting system that would allow change. Now all we have to look forward to is yet another red v blue donkey race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 The Liberal Democrats aren't that bad. They are no worse than the other two parties. They aren't fascist or communist or whatever. They aren't racist or anything but they are the complete opposite of everything I agree with and stand for. I'm not sure I've ever heard a policy of theirs I agree with. Even though clegg was a decent speaker in the debates, I just totally disagreed with the majority of what he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Oh for sure, we are much more pluralist than we once were. 95% of people used to vote for the top two parties, now only 65% do. That is why FPTP is such a shambles. On the contrary. Once we starting getting regular wishy washy coalitions Labour and the Conservatives will reclaim their places as they wake up to the fact that trying please everyone is a failing late 20th C approach. The death rattle of centre ground politics is getting louder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 They aren't racist or anything but they are the complete opposite of everything I agree with and stand for. I'm not sure I've ever heard a policy of theirs I agree with. Even though clegg was a decent speaker in the debates, I just totally disagreed with the majority of what he said. That's fair enough. A bit like me and the Conservative party then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 On the contrary. Once we starting getting regular wishy washy coalitions Labour and the Conservatives will reclaim their places as they wake up to the fact that trying please everyone is a failing late 20th C approach. The death rattle of centre ground politics is getting louder. If we keep getting these 'wish-washy' coalitions, electoral reform will come and never again will the labservative cartel be able to rule indefinitely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Not really, they are separate issues. In the future, there will probably be a Europe like the USA where each state retains a large degree of say over its laws and economic/social policy, but some stuff like Military etc is devised on a Europe wide basis. To be honest, it wouldn't be that much different from the status quo. For example the UK would never be able to start military action these days without NATO/USA support. Oh I have no doubt that many want what in effect would be the united states of Europe. It's why I will do whatever I can to oppose it, be it campaigning, raising awareness or lobbying the appropriate people. It's something I feel so strongly about I will do anything to stop that nightmare scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 If we keep getting these 'wish-washy' coalitions, electoral reform will come and never again will the labservative cartel be able to rule indefinitely! Time will tell on that one, but with Camerons stance on the EU I am softening to the idea. I do think that if the vote was held again now in the wake of our elected MP's voting for us not to have a say I think the outcome would be closer. I will say it again, Cameron has made a big mistake here, and this issue will not go away for him. He has made a lot of enemies this week and he'll rue the day he decided to take on the right of the party BECAUSE THE RIGHT OF THE PARTY IS THE PARTY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 (edited) Caroline Lucas (green) is speaking in favour of a referendum because like me she believes in democracy. I disagree with everything she stands for except for this. Fair play to her and decent parliamentarians including Kate Hoey and the MP for Romsey and the MP for New Forest for voting in favour too. It will interesting to see who votes in what way and which of those Tories are in marginals because as a member of the UKIP I will be urging the parties leadership to fight tooth and nail to deseat those Tories in marginals that voted against democracy. I notice that the MP for peterborough will be voting in favour. A shrewd move given he is MP in a marginal. I wonder whether we will see a trend here where those in most danger put promotion at risk to make their seats safer, because come the next election they will at least be able to defuse UKIP's potential to be a decisive part of their demise. Edited 24 October, 2011 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Not really, they are separate issues. In the future, there will probably be a Europe like the USA where each state retains a large degree of say over its laws and economic/social policy, but some stuff like Military etc is devised on a Europe wide basis. To be honest, it wouldn't be that much different from the status quo. For example the UK would never be able to start military action these days without NATO/USA support. The big difference is that in the us people regard themselves as Americans first and foremost, therefore sharing common goals and ideology. The same could not be said for the various inhabitants of the states of Europe. It can never work in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Caroline Lucas (green) is speaking in favour of a referendum because like me she believes in democracy. I disagree with everything she stands for except for this. Fair play to her and decent parliamentarians including Kate Hoey and the MP for Romsey and the MP for New Forest for voting in favour too. It will interesting to see who votes in what way and which of those Tories are in marginals because as a member of the UKIP I will be urging the parties leadership to fight tooth and nail to deseat those Tories in marginals that voted against democracy. I notice that the MP for peterborough will be voting in favour. A shrewd move given he is MP in a marginal. I wonder whether we will see a trend here where those in most danger put promotion at risk to make their seats safer, because come the next election they will at least be able to defuse UKIP's potential to be a decisive part of their demise. Do you think though that there would be a decent enough turn out at this hypothetical referendum for it to be truly 'democratic'? Obviously you will never get 100% turnout, so when the parliamentarian in me says "we need a referendum" the 'rational' inside me thinks "what is the point?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Do you think though that there would be a decent enough turn out at this hypothetical referendum for it to be truly 'democratic'? Obviously you will never get 100% turnout, so when the parliamentarian in me says "we need a referendum" the 'rational' inside me thinks "what is the point?" Of course turn out would be low because most people in this country take democracy for granted. You only have to look to places like Libya to see what it means to them. If people don't vote they have no right at all to complain. This idleness should not be used as an excuse not to exercise democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Of course turn out would be low because most people in this country take democracy for granted. You only have to look to places like Libya to see what it means to them. If people don't vote they have no right at all to complain. This idleness should not be used as an excuse not to exercise democracy. True, and I agree with you re. turnout, it is just in my opnion it makes a mockery of the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Of course turn out would be low because most people in this country take democracy for granted. You only have to look to places like Libya to see what it means to them. If people don't vote they have no right at all to complain. This idleness should not be used as an excuse not to exercise democracy. Probably your best post on here dune! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 The big difference is that in the us people regard themselves as Americans first and foremost, therefore sharing common goals and ideology. The same could not be said for the various inhabitants of the states of Europe. It can never work in the same way. Not always, a lot of Americans I have met have defined themselves by their state. I.E - 'Californian' or 'Texan' before American. Of course, many others define themselves as American first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Not always, a lot of Americans I have met have defined themselves by their state. I.E - 'Californian' or 'Texan' before American. Of course, many others define themselves as American first. You clearly haven't met many Americans. Try living there for a few years and you'll soon see how dumb your statement is. For a nipper with fu ck all experience of life you do spout some sh it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Not always, a lot of Americans I have met have defined themselves by their state. I.E - 'Californian' or 'Texan' before American. Of course, many others define themselves as American first. Ronald MacDonald isn't a real person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Not always, a lot of Americans I have met have defined themselves by their state. I.E - 'Californian' or 'Texan' before American. Of course, many others define themselves as American first. Ronald MacDonald isn't a real person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Why can't everyone just keep nice and civil? It's an internet forum... I can only speak from my own experience of those people I have met, and even if that is wrong there's no need to go on the attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Why can't everyone just keep nice and civil? It's an internet forum... I can only speak from my own experience of those people I have met, and even if that is wrong there's no need to go on the attack. You're just a kid with no life experience. I simply don't believe you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 You're just a kid with no life experience. I simply don't believe you. You're right. It's impossible that I have ever met anyone from the US. Forgive me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 You're just a kid with no life experience. I simply don't believe you. Yeah, but you're an unemployed hermit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 I know I'm young and there are many areas where my knowledge is deficient, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed an opinion... which will be more informed in some areas than those older than me, and less informed in other areas. The way to deal with that isn't the way a lot of older people do. And you wonder why young people are ****ed off at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Some really cutting comments against Cameron from Peter Bone in the closing statement. BUt he was right in everything he said and I admire him for that because that is exactly what I would have done. Tonight heralds the beginning of a split and all because Cameron was such an idiot by imposing a three line whip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Not always, a lot of Americans I have met have defined themselves by their state. I.E - 'Californian' or 'Texan' before American. Of course, many others define themselves as American first. Pretty much everyone I have met in the us would define themselves as an American over the state of their origin. I have worked extensively in the us so I feel pretty confident about this. However if you can track down ohio, he may settle the argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 (edited) Pretty much everyone I have met in the us would define themselves as an American over the state of their origin. I have worked extensively in the us so I feel pretty confident about this. However if you can track down ohio, he may settle the argument I admit that obviously those Americans I have met(and I have met many who say they are American) who said state over US are the exception, and I am obviously wrong. But there's no need for people to raise their blood pressure over it. Edit: Bear in mind I never said most Americans! Edited 24 October, 2011 by Saintandy666 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 (edited) 111 against... how many rebels though? Edit: I guess most of them are rebels though, as all 3 main parties whipped... but the Tory rebel number is the interesting one! Edited 24 October, 2011 by Saintandy666 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SO16_Saint Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 80 rebels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 111 against... how many rebels though? More than enough to undermine Camerons authority. 111 is also a fitting number with it's relation to a great British naval hero who fought and defeated so many Europeans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 80 rebels Source? And names if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SO16_Saint Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Source? And names if possible. Nick Robinson - BBC dude --- I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=50.946588,-1.434569 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 You might want to delete that 'I am here' thing... basically reveals where you live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 111 against... how many rebels though? Edit: I guess most of them are rebels though, as all 3 main parties whipped... but the Tory rebel number is the interesting one! And the Liberal number too. Charles Kennedy indicated he was going to vote in favour the other night. All Liberals should have, as Cleggy promised a vote before the election, but I guess democracy only stretches as far as voting reforms and self interest for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SO16_Saint Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 You might want to delete that 'I am here' thing... basically reveals where you live. Hmm - wondered what the hell that was!! Cheers!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 October, 2011 Share Posted 24 October, 2011 And the Liberal number too. Charles Kennedy indicated he was going to vote in favour the other night. All Liberals should have, as Cleggy promised a vote before the election, but I guess democracy only stretches as far as voting reforms and self interest for them. In fairness, Clegg said there should be a referendum when the next big change comes... which might not be so far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 24 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2011 Hmm - wondered what the hell that was!! Cheers!! ha ha, can we come round for tea? BTW your garden needs a good tidy. (only joking - just a street map came up and can't remember it now.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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