solentstars Posted 25 October, 2011 Share Posted 25 October, 2011 I think it is extremely unfair to label those who want to look again at Europe as nutty. It does you a disservice because people are less inclined to listen to you.there is nothing wrong with looking at europe its just the likes of billy cash and his bandwagon of nutters have always wanted to get us out ,no matter if the national interest is at stake.i rather they dealt with reality and were honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 25 October, 2011 Share Posted 25 October, 2011 there is nothing wrong with looking at europe its just the likes of billy cash and his bandwagon of nutters have always wanted to get us out ,no matter if the national interest is at stake.i rather they dealt with reality and were honest. That's the thing, though. No one has really proven that it'll damage the national interest. Just because some people of questionable character want out of Europe, doesn't mean that all views should be dismissed. That's the problem with yesterday's debate. There are voters of all colours who want to redefine the UK's relationship with Europe, and they're not getting a say. When is the Government going to be honest and deal with the reality of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 25 October, 2011 Share Posted 25 October, 2011 I can't decide if it's a bad time to get out of Europe because it will send the whole EU into a tailspin, or it's a good time to get out - to put as much distance between us and that mess as possible. Greece is obviously going to default, probably on all of it's debt. Other countrys will follow, can the EU remain anyway after all that sh!t goes down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 25 October, 2011 Share Posted 25 October, 2011 That's the thing, though. No one has really proven that it'll damage the national interest. Just because some people of questionable character want out of Europe, doesn't mean that all views should be dismissed. That's the problem with yesterday's debate. There are voters of all colours who want to redefine the UK's relationship with Europe, and they're not getting a say. When is the Government going to be honest and deal with the reality of that?good post pap its just i,m old enough to remember the labour party when they went anti-eu and the tories were pro europe when like marxists like scargill and his ilk tryed to destroy the labour party from within to get there own way and see those questionable characters lke bill cash doing the same things to the tory party. most of us have a love hate relationship i would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 25 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 25 October, 2011 I can't decide if it's a bad time to get out of Europe because it will send the whole EU into a tailspin, or it's a good time to get out - to put as much distance between us and that mess as possible. Greece is obviously going to default, probably on all of it's debt. Other countrys will follow, can the EU remain anyway after all that sh!t goes down? I'm just praying the FTSE and the DOW get back to 6000 and 12500 respectively before the next crash as this is my target exit point to divert into Corporate bonds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 25 October, 2011 Share Posted 25 October, 2011 The UK has been lumbered with a lame duck of a PM, depending on a bunch of selfish, ambitious, clueless cretins to prop up his majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 25 October, 2011 Share Posted 25 October, 2011 He is the last person we should be listening to regarding the EU. If it was down to him we'd be in the Euro now. His party also had a manifesto pledge for an in/out vote and his MP's walked out of the chamber in protest at being denied one during the Lisbon debate.How on earth anyone can quote this hypercritical clown to back up any arguement is beyond me. That's the thing with the EU debate, the most passionate about the EU, idiots like Clegg and Ken Clarke have been proved to be wrong over the ERM & again over the Euro and yet we're meant to take advise from them? You are wrong on some points here. Nick Clegg supports an in/out referendum as times of substantial change to our relationship with the EU... like the Lisbon Treaty etc. This is CLEARLY stated in the Lib Dem manifesto! So they will only be 'hypocrites' if they vote no to a referendum when the next treaty comes. But in fairness, this is coalition, and the David Cameron and his Tories won't let the Lib Dem's vote for a referendum as they so passionately believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 there is nothing wrong with looking at europe its just the likes of billy cash and his bandwagon of nutters have always wanted to get us out ,no matter if the national interest is at stake.i rather they dealt with reality and were honest. This is complete rubbish, the nutters are Ken Clarke,Hestletine, Grocer Heath, Mandelson,Blair The Lib/Dems and all the other Loons, who wanted us to join the Euro. Cash and his like are more in tune with more British people than that bunch of nut jobs ever are over Europe. Before any of the pro Europeans can be taken seriously again, they should start by holding their hands up over The Euro. The should admitt they were wrong and people like Cash, Redwood and Tony Benn were right. The whole mess unsurprisingly goes back to that idiot John Major and the Maastricht Treaty. He should have allowed a vote on that, as lots of our powers were given away. Because he was in bed with loons like Clarke, Hestletine and Patten, he turned the Tory party against each other, and destroyed it from within. Yet, again the Loyalists who did not want to be governed by Europe, were right. There should have been a vote on that treaty. The ironic thing is that the most eurosceptic party, is the one that was nearly destroyed over fighting FOR more European intergration, whilst the pro European Labour and Lib/Dems sat back and watched (I bet they cant beleive their luck). The Maastricht Treaty costs the Torys plenty of seats, with James Goldsmiths party splitting the vote in many consistuancies (Not that they would have won in 97, but they would have been better placed), it also proberly cost David Davies the tory leadership as well.Many back benchers and grass roots have never forgotten that he was a whip who rammed the treaty through Parliament, with strong arm tactics. Cameron is doing the same thing that many Tory wets do. He won the leadership by making out he is Eurosceptic (to defeat Davies, see above ) and then once in power, went all native on us.Like the left of the Labour party, the Tory right is driven by principles and not by power and favour. He will have lost a lot of trust over this and what are we into, his second year. Blair took about 5/6 years to start to lose the trust of his party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Like the left of the Labour party, the Tory right is driven by principles and not by power and favour. He will have lost a lot of trust over this and what are we into, his second year. Blair took about 5/6 years to start to lose the trust of his party. You are right about that. Cameron and Hague have been well and truely outed as being lying traitors. They were both firmly euroscpetical and now they are on the gravy train it's a case of "that was then and this is now". I shall never vote Conservative again whilst those two weasels have influence. It's UKIP all the way for me now, and up until now i've always voted Conservative in general elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmdzt3mxQjg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Watch this. Gosh, literally 10's of people protesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Gosh, literally 10's of people protesting. Over 300,000 signed the Daily Express petition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 This is complete rubbish, the nutters are Ken Clarke,Hestletine, Grocer Heath, Mandelson,Blair The Lib/Dems and all the other Loons, who wanted us to join the Euro. Cash and his like are more in tune with more British people than that bunch of nut jobs ever are over Europe. Before any of the pro Europeans can be taken seriously again, they should start by holding their hands up over The Euro. The should admitt they were wrong and people like Cash, Redwood and Tony Benn were right. The whole mess unsurprisingly goes back to that idiot John Major and the Maastricht Treaty. He should have allowed a vote on that, as lots of our powers were given away. Because he was in bed with loons like Clarke, Hestletine and Patten, he turned the Tory party against each other, and destroyed it from within. Yet, again the Loyalists who did not want to be governed by Europe, were right. There should have been a vote on that treaty. The ironic thing is that the most eurosceptic party, is the one that was nearly destroyed over fighting FOR more European intergration, whilst the pro European Labour and Lib/Dems sat back and watched (I bet they cant beleive their luck). The Maastricht Treaty costs the Torys plenty of seats, with James Goldsmiths party splitting the vote in many consistuancies (Not that they would have won in 97, but they would have been better placed), it also proberly cost David Davies the tory leadership as well.Many back benchers and grass roots have never forgotten that he was a whip who rammed the treaty through Parliament, with strong arm tactics. Cameron is doing the same thing that many Tory wets do. He won the leadership by making out he is Eurosceptic (to defeat Davies, see above ) and then once in power, went all native on us.Like the left of the Labour party, the Tory right is driven by principles and not by power and favour. He will have lost a lot of trust over this and what are we into, his second year. Blair took about 5/6 years to start to lose the trust of his party. Oh dear I can see the nutty right supporters missing the bit about Maggie and her help for the single euro market but like your fantasy about the Tory nut jobs. Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 (edited) I have highlighted the more interesting names. Good too see Dennis Skinner and Caroline Lucas on the list and that just proves this isn't a Tory rightwing nuts issue IT IS AN ISSUE OF DEMOCRACY. Conservatives In all, 81 Conservative MPs rebelled against the government. Two acted as tellers for the rebels, while 79 voted in favour of a referendum. A further two MPs voted both Aye and Noe, which counts as an abstention. Tellers Peter Bone (Wellingborough) and Philip Hollobone (Kettering) Rebels Stuart Andrew (Pudsey), Steven Baker (Wycombe), John Baron (Basildon & Billericay), Andrew Bingham (High Peak), Brian Binley (Northampton South), Bob Blackman (Harrow East), Graham Brady (Altrincham & Sale West), Andrew Bridgen (Leicestershire North West), Steve Brine (Winchester), Fiona Bruce (Congleton), Dan Byles (Warwickshire North), Douglas Carswell (Clacton), Bill Cash (Stone), Christopher Chope (Christchurch), James Clappison (Hertsmere), Tracey Crouch (Chatham & Aylesford), David Davies (Monmouth), Philip Davies (Shipley), David Davis (Haltemprice & Howden), Nick de Bois (Enfield North), Caroline Dinenage (Gosport), Nadine Dorries (Bedfordshire Mid), Richard Drax (Dorset South), Mark Field (Cities of London & Westminster), Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble), Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park), James Gray (Wiltshire North), Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry), Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne & Sheppey), George Hollingbery (Meon Valley), Adam Holloway (Gravesham), Stewart Jackson (Peterborough), Bernard Jenkin (Harwich & Essex North), Marcus Jones (Nuneaton), Chris Kelly (Dudley South), Andrea Leadsom (Northamptonshire South), Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford), Edward Leigh (Gainsborough), Julian Lewis (New Forest East), Karen Lumley (Redditch), Jason McCartney (Colne Valley), Karl McCartney (Lincoln), Stephen McPartland (Stevenage), Anne Main (St Albans), Patrick Mercer (Newark), Nigel Mills (Amber Valley), Anne-Marie Morris (Newton Abbot), James Morris (Halesowen & Rowley Regis), Stephen Mosley (Chester, City of), Sheryll Murray (Cornwall South East), Caroline Nokes (Romsey & Southampton North), David Nuttall (Bury North), Matthew Offord (Hendon), Neil Parish (Tiverton & Honiton), Priti Patel (Witham), Andrew Percy (Brigg & Goole), Mark Pritchard (Wrekin, The), Mark Reckless (Rochester & Strood), John Redwood (Wokingham), Jacob Rees-Mogg (Somerset North East), Simon Reevell (Dewsbury), Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury), Andrew Rosindell (Romford), Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills), Henry Smith (Crawley), John Stevenson (Carlisle), Bob Stewart (Beckenham), Gary Streeter (Devon South West), Julian Sturdy (York Outer), Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth & Horncastle), Justin Tomlinson (Swindon North), Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight), Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes), Charles Walker (Broxbourne), Robin Walker (Worcester), Heather Wheeler (Derbyshire South), Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley), John Whittingdale (Maldon), Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) Other (voted both Aye and Noe) Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) and Mike Weatherley (Hove) Labour Labour whips also ordered party members to vote against the referendum, on the basis that it would cause unnecessary economic uncertaintly. Still, 19 MPs defied the party whip and voted in favour of it. They were: Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley), Rosie Cooper (Lancashire West), Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North), Jon Cruddas (Dagenham & Rainham), John Cryer (Leyton & Wanstead), Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West), Natascha Engel (Derbyshire North East), Frank Field (Birkenhead), Roger Godsiff (Birmingham Hall Green), Kate Hoey (Vauxhall), Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North), Steve McCabe (Birmingham Selly Oak), John McDonnell (Hayes & Harlington), Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby), Dennis Skinner (Bolsover), Andrew Smith (Oxford East), Graham Stringer (Blackley & Broughton), Gisela Stuart (Birmingham Edgbaston), Mike Wood (Batley & Spen). Liberal Democrats Although Nick Clegg previously supported an "in/out" referendum (albeit in slightly more nuanced terms), Lib Dems were also ordered to vote against the motion. Just one MP rebelled: Adrian Sanders (Torbay) Other parties Democratic Unionist Party Eight MPs voted for the referendum: Gregory Campbell (Londonderry East), Nigel Dodds (Belfast North), Jeffrey Donaldson (Lagan Valley), Rev William McCrea (Antrim South), Ian Paisley Junior (Antrim North), Jim Shannon (Strangford), David Simpson (Upper Bann), Sammy Wilson (Antrim East) Independent (Unionist) Lady Sylvia Hermon (Down North) Green Party Caroline Lucas (Brighton Pavilion) Edited 26 October, 2011 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Like the Soviet Union and other multi national states like the British Empire/Austro Hungarian Empire before it, the EU will collapse/implode sooner rather than later if not in my lifetime, worse luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 It's UKIP all the way for me now Might as well roll your ballot paper up and poke it up your arse then, thanks to our current voting system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Over 300,000 signed the Daily Express petition. I am not talking about the daily express petition I am commenting that the strength of feeling on this issue across the country appeared to only bring out about 50 people to campaign in favour of the issue, half bussed up from the west country by the look of it, and they probably combined it with a sight seeing tour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Might as well roll your ballot paper up and poke it up your arse then, thanks to our current voting system. John Denham was elected thanks to the 2000+ UKIP votes. My MP voted for a referendum otherwise I would vote UKIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 (edited) John Denham was elected thanks to the 2000+ UKIP votes. My MP voted for a referendum otherwise I would vote UKIP. I always find it comical that the only way that UKIP win parliamentary seats is in the European election which is an election they don't want to happen using a voting system most of them disagree with. At least the greens managed one UK parliament seat which is something that appears to be well beyond ukip. Edited 26 October, 2011 by pedg is != in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 I'm willing to wager that those UKIP members on here voted against PR when PR would have benefited them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 John Denham was elected thanks to the 2000+ UKIP votes. My MP voted for a referendum otherwise I would vote UKIP. My slimy MP voted with the government. Hence I shall be voting UKIP. Not that it will make the slightest difference in one of the safest Tory seats in the land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 I'm willing to wager that those UKIP members on here voted against PR when PR would have benefited them! It was UKIP policy to vote for AV. But I chose not to and because I believed in strong majority governments. In light of this betrayal I was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 My slimy MP voted with the government. Hence I shall be voting UKIP. Not that it will make the slightest difference in one of the safest Tory seats in the land. Pity we don't have a fairer voting system isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Pity we don't have a fairer voting system isn't it? I've already held my hands up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 I've already held my hands up. Welcome to the dark side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 I've already held my hands up. Surrender so soon Dune. You must be slacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Surrender so soon Dune. You must be slacking. On second thoughts maybe I was right. The Conservative party under Cameron isn't the Conservative Party, but given enough bloody noses from UKIP in the marginals they will have to adopt UKIP policy. So looking at it that way then maybe in 2020-30 we will see a eurosceptic Tory party with a majority. Therefore I was too rash. Voting NO was the right decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Welcome to the dark side. Not quite yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 On second thoughts maybe I was right. The Conservative party under Cameron isn't the Conservative Party, but given enough bloody noses from UKIP in the marginals they will have to adopt UKIP policy. So looking at it that way then maybe in 2020-30 we will see a eurosceptic Tory party with a majority. Therefore I was too rash. Voting NO was the right decision. LOL. Keep believing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 LOL. Keep believing it. I will. Denham is a prime example of what UKIP will do in 2015. The Tories will never be able to win a majority until they neutralise UKIP. Therefore the Tories have a big big problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 I will. Denham is a prime example of what UKIP will do in 2015. The Tories will never be able to win a majority until they neutralise UKIP. Therefore the Tories have a big big problem. In that case I thank UKIP for their efforts in making sure the next government does not have a tory majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 (edited) I will. Denham is a prime example of what UKIP will do in 2015. The Tories will never be able to win a majority until they neutralise UKIP. Therefore the Tories have a big big problem. Good point. This vote, and the fact that so many Conservative MPs who had previously banged the drum over Europe voted against a referendum will drive disenfranchised voters away from the main parties. How many UKIP voters did the Tories create on Monday? Edited 26 October, 2011 by pap Because it frankly made no f'king sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 In that case I thank UKIP for their efforts in making sure the next government does not have a tory majority. Don't thank UKIP, thank Cameron and chums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 i don,t know why any of the tory hard right who want out of europe don,t have the guts to defect to ukip to start the ball rolling and those tory voters who hate europe with a passion vote for ukip the only honest party about leaving and hopefully then they will start the ball rolling to put us on the outside of our main tradeing block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Good point. This vote, and the fact that so many Conservative MPs who had previously banged the drum over Europe voted against a referendum will drive disenfranchised voters away from the main parties. How many UKIP voters did the Tories create on Monday? Notice how the MP's for Winch and Romsey voted in favour. Very wise in such marginal seats. I will be urging my party not to fight these seats as I believe they acted decently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 i don,t know why any of the tory hard right who want out of europe don,t have the guts to defect to ukip to start the ball rolling and those tory voters who hate europe with a passion vote for ukip the only honest party about leaving and hopefully then they will start the ball rolling to put us on the outside of our main tradeing block. Yeah, because it's only the tory right and no one, not one, has ever thought about trade, business or commerce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 On second thoughts maybe I was right. The Conservative party under Cameron isn't the Conservative Party, but given enough bloody noses from UKIP in the marginals they will have to adopt UKIP policy. So looking at it that way then maybe in 2020-30 we will see a eurosceptic Tory party with a majority. Therefore I was too rash. Voting NO was the right decision.[/quote cameron is a one nation tory who got elected by giveing the impression to the eurosceptics he was one of them and now the knives are out for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 i don,t know why any of the tory hard right who want out of europe don,t have the guts to defect to ukip to start the ball rolling and those tory voters who hate europe with a passion vote for ukip the only honest party about leaving and hopefully then they will start the ball rolling to put us on the outside of our main tradeing block. I have been thinking this myself. A lot will depend on Cameron being seen to honor his pledge to repatriate powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Yeah, because it's only the tory right and no one, not one, has ever thought about trade, business or commerce.thats the problem trade, business or commerce should be the main considerations before anything else but its not being talked about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 I have been thinking this myself. A lot will depend on Cameron being seen to honor his pledge to repatriate powers. He can't and those footing the tory bill won't let him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 thats the problem trade, business or commerce should be the main considerations before anything else but its not being talked about. Oh dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 I have been thinking this myself. A lot will depend on Cameron being seen to honor his pledge to repatriate powers. i think you know dune hes just stringing his party along with soundbites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Cameron is a one nation tory who got elected by giveing the impression to the eurosceptics he was one of them and now the knives are out for him Cameron has no conviction. He is trying to win votes from guardian readers (that he will never win) and is taking his traditional core support for granted. I think he's made a grave mistake. He is essentially trying to be another Tony Blair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 i think you know dune hes just stringing his party along with soundbites. Peter Bone et al were openly scathing of Cameron in the debate. Cameron has lost his authority over the party. Listen to Bones closing statement and it is jaw droppingly confrontational. Camerons weasel words do not wash anymore with his back benchers anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 He is essentially trying to be another Tony Blair. Remind me how many elections in a row Tony Blair won my appealing to the middle ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Cameron has no conviction. He is trying to win votes from guardian readers (that he will never win) and is taking his traditional core support for granted. I think he's made a grave mistake. He is essentially trying to be another Tony Blair.i told you that ages ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Remind me how many elections in a row Tony Blair won my appealing to the middle ground? Yep, but I think it's different with Cameron. He couldn't even win a majority against Gordon Brown FFS. By royally ****ing off his core support he has lost any hope of winning the next election. He needed seats such as Denhams last time, so he isn't going to win them next time when the UKIP vote strengthens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Remind me how many elections in a row Tony Blair won my appealing to the middle ground?true but the tory looney right are not interested in the middle ground and would be better of forming their own party or defecting to ukip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 October, 2011 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2011 true but the tory looney right are not interested in the middle ground and would be better of forming their own party or defecting to ukip. You lot complain about Labour not being Socialist enough. What is so wrong with a choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 You lot complain about Labour not being Socialist enough. What is so wrong with a choice? i don,t complain has i,ve always voted for all the parties in the past . plus i,m old enought to remember the looney left who wanted us out of the eu back in the 70,s useing the same language has the nutty right and the tories were the pro euro party at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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