Something feels different....

[RobM]

As a Saints supporter, I've been through many new seasons.

Many new managers.

Many changes to players at the start of a new season.

Many troubled times.

Many promising times.

Many unknown, worrying times....

 

But something feels different today. Like a total fresh start, a breath of fresh air almost. There is no boardroom unrest, everyone is pulling in the same direction (whether it's the right one or not remains to be seen), everyone is committed and saying the right things and it just feels different, like no other start to the season I've experienced before.

 

Last season was important, but it was the same old thing as we went through the season before that. And even when new managers have come in, everything else has stayed the same.

 

This time everything has changed. Not just the people, but the vision and direction.

 

It's odd... but I like it

[saint francis]

Give it an hour.

[MulletMan]

Give it an hour.

 

hehe:smt082

[Saintmike666]

I shall reserve my judgement for a few weeks yet. But I completely agree with the sentiment that it feels like a total fresh start and a breath of fresh air.

[madruss]

I know what you mean mate, the start of the season does feel pretty different.

 

I think the fact that the differences are in key areas, i.e. formation / style of play / emphasis on youth.

 

Those three areas have generally not changed significantly for as many pre-seasons as I can remember, whereas this season they've changed so dramatically it really feels like a total new start.

 

It might turn out to be a pile of shi*e, but let's enjoy the optimism whilst it lasts. COYR

[TopGun]

Even if it is not an immediate success it has to be a better more honest brand of football than the dregs that was served up last year. That, to me, is the main difference.

[1965onwards]

It amazes me on here that plenty of people seem to still hanker for the old ways that have failed us so often.

 

Roll on the intelligent revolution.

[RobM]

Give it an hour.

 

Perfect, love it!

 

Time will tell I suppose, but at least this is exciting

[Le Tiss #7]

Whats the deal with this new site? £5 to express yourself? my opinion is free!

[sfcuk fan]

Bring it on .... COME ON YOU RED YOOF

[RobM]

Whats the deal with this new site? £5 to express yourself? my opinion is free!

 

It's shocking. Even Tesco wanted to charge me for my shopping the other day, and the AA wouldn't come out and fix my car for free. And don't even get me started on road tax....

[derry]

Even if it is not an immediate success it has to be a better more honest brand of football than the dregs that was served up last year. That, to me, is the main difference.

 

I agree, I've just watched BirminghamvSU, what frenetic utter dross.

[tiger]

It amazes me on here that plenty of people seem to still hanker for the old ways that have failed us so often.

 

Roll on the intelligent revolution.

 

 

But we are being lead by 2 blokes who have failed us in the past?

[1965onwards]

Yes,but not on the football side.

[Le Tiss #7]

It's shocking. Even Tesco wanted to charge me for my shopping the other day, and the AA wouldn't come out and fix my car for free. And don't even get me started on road tax....

 

Your a muppet for paying £5.

[RobM]

Your a muppet for paying £5.

 

You're still posting here though!

 

And I bet you still read this site when you've used your 3 posts.

 

You'll pay, you know you will :butthead:

[Bon Call Night]

But we are being lead by 2 blokes who have failed us in the past?

 

And you have never made a bad decision or two in your life. They have come in with an idea and have this time follwed it through with a team supportive of those ideas rather than Harry 'Stick in the Mud' Redknapp. Now he has run out of money watch his old squad wither and die - their old brigade are worthless and picking up stupid money each week that they cannot cover. Even the gun money has run out!!!

 

On the other hand we have invested a little bit here and there cleared out the old style and old ideas, promoted the kids who will both entertain us and finance the future. We will lose a few along the way no doubt to the PL bright lights but we are now a team on the up, and yes led by two blokes who have made mistakes in the past - they hopefully will learn from them and go on to make different mistakes, until then we should all man the pumps and help these kids take Saints forward.

 

We have players out their with an ambition to play Premier League football, not a bunch of journey men who realise that promotion could be the end of their meal ticket as they are jettisoned for better players.

[silverback]

No it doesn't we through the game away in last few minutes same old Saints

[alpine_saint]

no it doesn't we through the game away in last few minutes same old saints

 

lol

[RobM]

No it doesn't we through the game away in last few minutes same old Saints

 

Threw the game away? Or conceded a dubious goal from a set-piece?

[Pongo]

But something feels different today. Like a total fresh start, a breath of fresh air almost. There is no boardroom unrest, everyone is pulling in the same direction (whether it's the right one or not remains to be seen), everyone is committed and saying the right things and it just feels different, like no other start to the season I've experienced before.

 

Last season was important, but it was the same old thing as we went through the season before that. And even when new managers have come in, everything else has stayed the same.

 

This time everything has changed. Not just the people, but the vision and direction.

 

It's odd... but I like it

 

Will you still be liking it when we've played 3 lost 3?

[Snowballs2]

I wonder if Scooby knows we did not win 3--0 yet. I hope he returns to his Portsmouth forum and leaves this site for good

[RobM]

Will you still be liking it when we've played 3 lost 3?

 

Yes, of course. I never said this was our season, or we would 'walk this league', did I? No

 

What I said, was this season feels different. Lots of changes have been made, there is less in-fighting and everything is more positive than at the start of the last couple of seasons. I think this is the start of something, not the end of something. Given time and support, this could be the start of a massive rebuilding of Southampton FC.

 

But people like you, Pongo, will never understand that, will always look on the dark side, aren't willing to give things time and aren't worth trying to have a good debate with. For you, judging by the tone of your post, the season is already over and we're already relegated.

[Wes Tender]

But people like you, Pongo, will never understand that, will always look on the dark side, aren't willing to give things time and aren't worth trying to have a good debate with. For you, judging by the tone of your post, the season is already over and we're already relegated.

 

Just because he looks at things in a different light to you, his point of view is no less valid. All he asked was whether you would still like it as much if we lost our first three games, which you have not answered yet. And for that he gets categorised as "people like you" and told that he is not worth having a good debate with. I also do not know how from his comment you could discern that he thinks the season is already over and that we're already relegated just by his tone.

 

Given time and support, this could be the start of a massive rebuilding of Southampton FC.

 

What exactly do you mean by support? Us the fans, or inward investment? No real sign of the latter from the current incumbents. If you meant us, even if we filled the stadium every match, we would still not raise enough to start a massive rebuilding of the club. The reality is that as things stand and without a takeover happening by people with serious dosh available, that we will struggle on with cheap youth and older journeymen released on frees. If we have serious injuries to the squad, we are down to the barebones and will survive in this division if we are lucky. Even if we repeatedly keep our head above water, we will become a feeder club for the Premiership sides, as we will constantly have to sell any youngster who displays any real talent.

 

This is my point of view and you can either dismiss it as the thoughts of "somebody like you", or I'd be interested to hear your arguments against my scenario if you wish to debate it.

[Bon Call Night]

Just because he looks at things in a different light to you, his point of view is no less valid. All he asked was whether you would still like it as much if we lost our first three games, which you have not answered yet. And for that he gets categorised as "people like you" and told that he is not worth having a good debate with. I also do not know how from his comment you could discern that he thinks the season is already over and that we're already relegated just by his tone.

 

 

 

What exactly do you mean by support? Us the fans, or inward investment? No real sign of the latter from the current incumbents. If you meant us, even if we filled the stadium every match, we would still not raise enough to start a massive rebuilding of the club. The reality is that as things stand and without a takeover happening by people with serious dosh available, that we will struggle on with cheap youth and older journeymen released on frees. If we have serious injuries to the squad, we are down to the barebones and will survive in this division if we are lucky. Even if we repeatedly keep our head above water, we will become a feeder club for the Premiership sides, as we will constantly have to sell any youngster who displays any real talent.

 

This is my point of view and you can either dismiss it as the thoughts of "somebody like you", or I'd be interested to hear your arguments against my scenario if you wish to debate it.

 

 

But it would put our management team in control of their own destiny without having to satisfy the banks sooner. An extra 10k people paying £20 plus the odd coffee and programme say an average spend of £25, this is £6m over the course of the season - that sounds like a serious wedge of money when you consider last years turnover was £10m!!

[RobM]

Just because he looks at things in a different light to you, his point of view is no less valid. All he asked was whether you would still like it as much if we lost our first three games, which you have not answered yet. And for that he gets categorised as "people like you" and told that he is not worth having a good debate with. I also do not know how from his comment you could discern that he thinks the season is already over and that we're already relegated just by his tone.

 

I take it you missed the first three words of my post then?

 

What exactly do you mean by support? Us the fans, or inward investment? No real sign of the latter from the current incumbents. If you meant us, even if we filled the stadium every match, we would still not raise enough to start a massive rebuilding of the club. The reality is that as things stand and without a takeover happening by people with serious dosh available, that we will struggle on with cheap youth and older journeymen released on frees. If we have serious injuries to the squad, we are down to the barebones and will survive in this division if we are lucky. Even if we repeatedly keep our head above water, we will become a feeder club for the Premiership sides, as we will constantly have to sell any youngster who displays any real talent.

 

This is my point of view and you can either dismiss it as the thoughts of "somebody like you", or I'd be interested to hear your arguments against my scenario if you wish to debate it.

 

More than happy to debate it.

 

Firstly, by support I mean everyone involved supporting the cause. I mean the board not sacking the management after a run of bad games, I mean the fans giving this new way of thinking a chance and I mean everybody realising that we are in trouble and there is no overnight fix. It will take time.

 

Secondly, you seem to have made the assumption that the ONLY way to rebuild a club is with masses of money. That's not true. We wouldn't be the first and certainly wont be the last club in financial problems who need to find a way of improving without a millionaire behind the scenes.

 

Over the last few seasons we have had a squad assembled of some good players, but a much higher proportion that I'd like were journeymen and the managers mates. This has sadly been the case for quite some time, certainly since our relegation season. These players didn't really care what happens to our club, they can always move on if things go wrong. The manager didn't discipline, the board were never in place long enough to learn peoples names and the fans grew frustrated and many lost the love they once had for the club. Because of this we have been slipping further down the league every season... from relegation to the Prem, to near relegation from the CCC last season.

 

To rebuild, without money, we needed a new direction. Some clever thinking, perhaps. So what do you do if you can't go out and spend money to solve a problem....? You work with what you have and make the best of it.

 

What's one of our biggest strengths at Southampton? The Academy. Now take a look at what we are doing this season, we have a board that has a clear idea of their intended direction, we have a manager who wants to build a team around youth players and well chosen older, wiser heads (i.e. two experienced pros at CB and a bench containing wise heads capable of providing leadership, like Wotton), we have young players who are playing for Southampton FC because they WANT to, because they want to be playing football and they believe in what they are doing.

 

That, to me, sounds like a good rebuilding plan.

 

We aren't going to be saved by some mystical White Night with a big bag 'o dosh. So we are working with what we have.

 

To reply to a point you made about filling the stadium... you claim this wont help rebuild the club. I believe you're wrong. Filling the stadium is our best hope of raising money, other than player trading. By doing this week in, week out, we give the club an increased revenue stream that can be put towards anything we need. That may be investment in the academy, it might be clearing our financial problems, it might be used to attract better players with the temptation of a decent wage, it might be used for many other things I've not thought of. But one things for certain... all of this goes towards rebuilding Southampton FC.

Getting rid of debt, creating a good team and a good squad and giving the fans what they want is exactly the right thing to aim for.

 

If our league position at the end of this season is notably better than last season and we have been more consistent in winning games and picking up points, this plan will be proven to work.

 

You also claim that if we have some serious injuries we are in bigtime trouble. I agree with this, in some positions. So how do you raise money to fund investment in the squad? As above... fill the stadium. Oh, and buy a pie when you're there!

Edited 10 August, 2008 by RobM

[RobM]

Oh, and Wes, just on the subject of my reply to Pongo, please have a read through his other posts and you may see why I posted what I did. Comments such as "As expected our squad is utter ****e." and "League 1 beckons" may help you understand why I believe Pongo's opinion is we are already relegated

[Charlie Wayman]

A break from the past was certainly long overdue and may have been the only option going forward if we are ever to become a serious force in football again. My one over-riding concern is not about the quality of our young ex-Academy players - some will make it, some will not - but whether those that do will really have a different attitude to the lure of the premiership and it's elusive riches, to the likes of Bridge, Bale and Walcott who badgered off at the first sniff of a pony!

 

This is where Poortvliet will face his biggest test as a manager. Somehow, he must make himself more important to these kids than their agents, which means establishing a bond of trust and loyalty with them individually that will enable them to thrive in a successful team.

 

Unfortunately for Jan this will require success within 2/3 years because if it doesn't come then the lads, who will then be a bit older and a bit wiser, will lose trust and respect for him and his system and begin to think their only route to riches will be up the M3 or A34

[Wes Tender]

I take it you missed the first three words of my post then?

 

More than happy to debate it.

 

Firstly, by support I mean everyone involved supporting the cause. I mean the board not sacking the management after a run of bad games, I mean the fans giving this new way of thinking a chance and I mean everybody realising that we are in trouble and there is no overnight fix. It will take time.

 

Whether the new management get a real chance is one of the big debating points that I have already raised elsewhere. On the one hand, Lowe's past record of keeping managers once things go badly pear-shaped suggests otherwise, but the circumstances here are different in that it is Lowe who has endorsed this experimental set-up personally. On that basis, other factors come into it involving his ego, so that we might well endure rather more bad results than otherwise before panic sets in, if that is indeed how things pan out. Let's hope not. Most fans will undoubtedly give this a chance, at least whilst there is no alternative.

 

Secondly, you seem to have made the assumption that the ONLY way to rebuild a club is with masses of money. That's not true. We wouldn't be the first and certainly wont be the last club in financial problems who need to find a way of improving without a millionaire behind the scenes.

 

That all depends. The difference in opinion is to whether it is a case of rebuilding or just holding one's ground under the current board. A club without stadium mortgage debt is far better placed to rebuild, as they have no mortgage interest to pay to begin with. Any monies raised from the sale of players would go straight towards paying off debt at the moment, as would any monies gained through higher attendances. Therefore I find it hard to square that situation with one of rebuilding.

 

Over the last few seasons we have had a squad assembled of some good players, but a much higher proportion that I'd like were journeymen and the managers mates.

 

I don't disagree there. Many managers bring with them players who they knew they could rely on, or who they knew had certain attributes that they sought. Fortunately, we are unlikely to have that situation now with Jan, as his players were lower division, probably nowhere near as good as our kids, or one suspects that some higher division Dutch club would have snapped them up.

 

This has sadly been the case for quite some time, certainly since our relegation season. These players didn't really care what happens to our club, they can always move on if things go wrong. The manager didn't discipline, the board were never in place long enough to learn peoples names Was that necessary anyway? Many have expressed opinions that the board should take care of the running of the club and that the manager should take care of the team. and the fans grew frustrated and many lost the love they once had for the club. Because of this we have been slipping further down the league every season... from relegation to the Prem, to near relegation from the CCC last season.

 

You've given a few reasons why the fans have become disillusioned. I'll provide the ones that I believe you have left out. Apart from the obvious one of relegation from the Premiership, the fan base was split right down the middle in favour or either Lowe and his cohorts, Wilde or Crouch. Many have become more disillusioned because of the constant petty squabbles between these various factions and it has hardly improved matters when the two main protagonists who caused disunity and both having failed when chairman, allied themselves together. Many had their favourites amongst the older players and they are alienated when those players are being forced out of the club.

 

To rebuild, without money, we needed a new direction. Some clever thinking, perhaps. So what do you do if you can't go out and spend money to solve a problem....? You work with what you have and make the best of it.

 

This sounds pretty ironic against the background of what the old/new board did as their very first action. Instead of working with what they had, they dismissed a popular manager who had seemed to show some promise in doing exactly what you had advocated above. He apparently had no favourites, treated everybody equally, seemed able to fire up those journeymen into having some sense of pride and purpose, improved fitness and discipline. But apparently his wages were not attractive when it became clear that for one Pearson you could have two Dutchmen from the lower divisions.

 

What's one of our biggest strengths at Southampton? The Academy. Now take a look at what we are doing this season, we have a board that has a clear idea of their intended direction, we have a manager who wants to build a team around youth players and well chosen older, wiser heads Not journeymen, heaven forbid! (i.e. two experienced pros at CB and a bench containing wise heads capable of providing leadership, like Wotton), Wouldn't that leadership be better employed on the pitch? we have young players who are playing for Southampton FC because they WANT to, because they want to be playing football and they believe in what they are doing.

 

That, to me, sounds like a good rebuilding plan.

 

As I said elsewhere, the best plans are based on the most options available, not the desperate situations where options are limited to the extent that there is only one realistic direction to go, which is effectively to sell everything that isn't bolted down and rely on youthful inexperience in the hope that given the chance they will do what more experienced players couldn't.

 

We aren't going to be saved by some mystical White Night with a big bag 'o dosh. So we are working with what we have.

 

"We aren't" is definite rather than probable. Do you know this for a fact? I don't, so I still hold out hope that it might come to pass. More money = more choices = more chance of success.

 

To reply to a point you made about filling the stadium... you claim this wont help rebuild the club. I believe you're wrong. Filling the stadium is our best hope of raising money, other than player trading. By doing this week in, week out, we give the club an increased revenue stream that can be put towards anything we need. That may be investment in the academy, it might be clearing our financial problems, it might be used to attract better players with the temptation of a decent wage, it might be used for many other things I've not thought of. But one things for certain... all of this goes towards rebuilding Southampton FC.

 

We filled the stadium on the last day of the season when we were facing relegation. But the average gate for most of that season was at a level hovering around the break-even mark. There are undoubtedly those who have as you say become disillusioned by the boardroom shenanigans, the players, the manager, the poor entertainment value, many reasons. Everything hinges on whether the kids produce entertaining and winning football. If they gain some momentum up the table, the gates will increase. But even with the increased gates, the stadium revenue is hardly enough to reduce the losses by much. Player sales will inevitably be the quick fix for this board as it always has been. I still stand by my prediction that we will become a feeder club for the Premiership.

 

Getting rid of debt, creating a good team and a good squad and giving the fans what they want is exactly the right thing to aim for.

 

Nothing to argue about there.

 

If our league position at the end of this season is notably better than last season and we have been more consistent in winning games and picking up points, this plan will be proven to work.

But the main contributors who have ensured that success will be putting themselves firmly in the shop window.

 

You also claim that if we have some serious injuries we are in bigtime trouble. I agree with this, in some positions. So how do you raise money to fund investment in the squad? As above... fill the stadium. Oh, and buy a pie when you're there!

 

I'm glad that you're so sure that the money raised will be ploughed right back into the squad. I wish i shared your optimism, but a decade of Lowe has made me rather a cynic, as you probably gathered. I'm afraid I'm not into buying pies from the sort of catering establishments found at football grounds, as I'd hate to think where some of the ingredients came from.

[70's Mike]

interested in knowing what is meant by investing in the Academy ?

does it mean going out and buying the best youngsters like we did a few years back ?

I am concerned , having watched our under 13 academy side last season, that we concentrate on small skillful players (MR WU's) and ignore the type of player needed these days (athletes).

[RobM]

I'm glad that you're so sure that the money raised will be ploughed right back into the squad. I wish i shared your optimism, but a decade of Lowe has made me rather a cynic, as you probably gathered. I'm afraid I'm not into buying pies from the sort of catering establishments found at football grounds, as I'd hate to think where some of the ingredients came from.

 

I shant quote the entire post of yours, Wes, since it's getting a tad long! But it's good to see we agree on some aspects, it's also good to see somebody willing to debate things properly without getting childish (something I can be guilty of, I know...)

 

Anyhow... I guess my red and white tinted glasses and eternal optimism do play a big part in the way I see things, but at the same time I'm all for calling a spade a spade.

 

I've never been a big Lowe fan, but equally I've never been a fan of judging the work he does on his personality. Would I buy him a pint and sit and talk to him? No. But so long as he does the right thing for 'my' club, I don't care what he's like as a man. Football chairmen aren't there to be liked, hatred is a part of the job description!

 

I agree with you that we should have kept Pearson, the type of man who this club has been crying out for for some years. But, and I've made a thread about this in the past, I do believe that Lowe bringing in 'his men' in the form of JP and Co could be a very good thing, as Lowe is much more likely to back and support his men than somebody he inherited or was pressured into appointing. All of this is Lowe's work and as we know all too well, his ego will want to see this work so he can say I told you so. That's fine with me, so long as it works.

 

I'm prepared to give all this time, I really am. If we end up in the middle of the table this year but have shown clear signs of improvement, a change in attitude and direction and it is clear we are moving forward, I'm happy. But I expect to see further improvement the next season, the season after that and so on. That's what rebuilding is about, IMO. Consistent improvement rather than overnight miracles.

That said, if Lowe or anybody else doesn't consistently perform for this club, I'll be first in line to say so.

 

To answer your point about investment, of course I know nothing about whether our White Night is around the corner or not. I hope so, but you can't build or run any business around wishes, hopes and dreams. We are in a bad financial mess, so the important thing is to get us out of that so we don't have to rely on investment. The flip side of that is a solid financial footing will, hopefully, make us more attractive to investors. Win-Win

 

Another thing you touched on is the split fan base regarding the board. Ironically, I think Lowe may have fixed this. Lowe is back, Lowe is back doing what Lowe wants to do and Lowe isn't going to let anybody else get in his way. Like it or not (probably not...) this is where we are and I think most fans realise this. There isn't another option (save for that White Night) so there is nothing to argue about. If nothing else, that's made this forum a nicer place to spend time

 

As said, I do wear red and white tinted glasses and I am an optimist... so the way I see it is we can support the club the best we can and hope for the best... or *****, moan, complain and protest. One way sounds a lot more enjoyable than the other to me!

[Wes Tender]

RobM...I am reminded of the tourist travelling around Ireland who asks a local for directions. The local, leaning on his gate and sucking his straw thinks for a minute and then replies...."Well, if I was you and wanting to get there, I sure as hell wouldn't start off from here."

 

The crux of the problem as we both agree is that we are where we are, like it or not, regardless of where the blame lies and we need to take measures to redress the situation.

 

Like any reasonable fan, what I want is what everybody wants; a successful club. The detail of how to best achieve that is where differences come into play. If we become a financially stable club, we will attract investment from one set of investors and put off others, who would rather get us on the cheap, freeing up money to spend on the team. Also, I would contend that if Lowe and Wilde get the finances stable, they are less likely to make way for others. Experience tells us that inward investment has not been the benchmark of the times when either Lowe or Wilde have been Chairman.

 

Building the club towards financial security is going to be a very long term strategy along those lines. The drawbacks are that the youngsters who shine might be sold, the policy requires a growth in confidence gained from winning, which not only will motivate the players, but encourage the growth of crowds. The other side of the coin is a run of bad losses, loss of confidence, a siege mentality and falling crowds. We both agree that the likelihood is that Lowe will hold on to this experiment as long as possible to avoid loss of face, but that might be very detrimental to us and possibly ensure our further relegation.

 

Nobody knows at this stage which scenario is the more likely, but it is as well to be aware of the possibilities. Given this choice or the hope that a White Knight will arrive on his charger to take us over, I'd prefer that, provided that the new people do not incentivise the takeover by financially rewarding the directors as SISU tried to do.