Academy output - what is broken?

[Saint86]

On 02/02/2021 at 15:09, trousers said:

Can this all be traced back to our flirtation with non-existence followed by c.5 years of lower league football?  i.e. the players looking to break into the first team over the last few years would have joined the club as kids during a period where we wouldn't have been able to attract the best 8, 9, 10 year olds into the academy? #thinkingoutloud

Yes it can. People shouldn't be surprised that we have "league 1 level output" 10years on from being in administration and sitting in the 3rd tier. And after our academy setup was picked apart during our slide down the leagues. Its like stating the bleedin obvious... And the club acknowledged indirectly with all that stuff about picking over released players looking for hidden attributes and trying to sign some for the academy. Prime example being Tella.

Edited 7 June, 2021 by Saint86

[OldNick]

Listening to someone who has first hand knowledge of how the academy is working now worried me quite a lot.

Not very well organised and not much focus apparently. 

[Daft Kerplunk]

17 hours ago, Saint86 said:

Yes it can. People shouldn't be surprised that we have "league 1 level output" 10years on from being in administration and sitting in the 3rd tier. And after our academy setup was picked apart during our slide down the leagues. Its like stating the bleedin obvious... And the club acknowledged indirectly with all that stuff about picking over released players looking for hidden attributes and trying to sign some for the academy. Prime example being Tella.

The administration impact would have had an impact but it is 12 years since Marcus Liebherr took over and started investing in the academy. Many of the good coaches were still there so it was down to the new person running football to get things going. That person was Les and the academy hasn’t been on form since when it comes to developing actual premier league level players. If Les was amazing, we’d have at least a couple of players signed at a youngish age making great strides right now. That things have only become worse in the academy means it needs a proper overhaul from top to bottom. 

[Saint86]

4 hours ago, Daft Kerplunk said:

The administration impact would have had an impact but it is 12 years since Marcus Liebherr took over and started investing in the academy. Many of the good coaches were still there so it was down to the new person running football to get things going. That person was Les and the academy hasn’t been on form since when it comes to developing actual premier league level players. If Les was amazing, we’d have at least a couple of players signed at a youngish age making great strides right now. That things have only become worse in the academy means it needs a proper overhaul from top to bottom. 

A lot of the academy set up got poached or wasn't as well supported. Kids join the club at 8years old, so 12 years on that's the 20year olds - of which fans oft like to remind us "they aren't very good".

But we got back to the prem about 10years ago now, which will have given us the draw, funding and stability to both recruit better prospects and train them better - so i personally would expect to start seeing some good 18year olds coming through soon.

[Daft Kerplunk]

1 hour ago, Saint86 said:

A lot of the academy set up got poached or wasn't as well supported. Kids join the club at 8years old, so 12 years on that's the 20year olds - of which fans oft like to remind us "they aren't very good".

But we got back to the prem about 10years ago now, which will have given us the draw, funding and stability to both recruit better prospects and train them better - so i personally would expect to start seeing some good 18year olds coming through soon.

Exactly on that last bit. But also, we signed Lallana at 12 and therefore we definitely should have players ready to make a significant contribution. I think this is what Ralph was saying when he said that a player from each year should be making a difference to the first team. Getting players to make a substitute appearance in the league is simply not enough even if the club thinks it can sell the idea of it being success. Some fans and sponsors might be gullible but those who dig beneath the surface guff can see we aren’t as great as we say we are. It just needs some serious honesty (not to fans necessarily but internally) from those running the football club. When significant changes start happening like new technical directors with excellent track records, great coaches being employed, you’ll know they’ve taken the problem and are committed to turning it around. If the current academy (anything below first team) leadership stays as is, you know they aren’t yet.

[Saint86]

35 minutes ago, Daft Kerplunk said:

Exactly on that last bit. But also, we signed Lallana at 12 and therefore we definitely should have players ready to make a significant contribution. I think this is what Ralph was saying when he said that a player from each year should be making a difference to the first team. Getting players to make a substitute appearance in the league is simply not enough even if the club thinks it can sell the idea of it being success. Some fans and sponsors might be gullible but those who dig beneath the surface guff can see we aren’t as great as we say we are. It just needs some serious honesty (not to fans necessarily but internally) from those running the football club. When significant changes start happening like new technical directors with excellent track records, great coaches being employed, you’ll know they’ve taken the problem and are committed to turning it around. If the current academy (anything below first team) leadership stays as is, you know they aren’t yet.

I agree.

But to add to the recruitment at older ages part - this doesn't change the fact that a given 12year old player would have been recruited into a poorer youth setup re coaching quality, facilities, and youth player quality/ability wise. There is no way an 12year old coached at a poorer level for the first few years has the same chance of reaching an equivalent level as one who gets top quality coaching since the get go. This is where we have been coming from in all reality. And yes, the club don't openly say that, but there have been signs that they know it an acknowledge it for a few years now. Not least by the way we have been picking up older players that don't make the grade elsewhere. I think the fans have to be realistic about this. It simply isn't a reasonable expectation that a club that went through administration and time spent in league 1 and the championship is going to keep churning out youth players with the same success we had previously. But it is the club ethos to develop young players, and hopefully that is where we get back to.

[Smirking_Saint]

7 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

I agree.

But to add to the recruitment at older ages part - this doesn't change the fact that a given 12year old player would have been recruited into a poorer youth setup re coaching quality, facilities, and youth player quality/ability wise. There is no way an 12year old coached at a poorer level for the first few years has the same chance of reaching an equivalent level as one who gets top quality coaching since the get go. This is where we have been coming from in all reality. And yes, the club don't openly say that, but there have been signs that they know it an acknowledge it for a few years now. Not least by the way we have been picking up older players that don't make the grade elsewhere. I think the fans have to be realistic about this. It simply isn't a reasonable expectation that a club that went through administration and time spent in league 1 and the championship is going to keep churning out youth players with the same success we had previously. But it is the club ethos to develop young players, and hopefully that is where we get back to.

This is pretty much what I said the other day

Our academy set up is one of the very best in the league, we have had a largely untouched coaching team and facilities with the exception of the guy at the top. But like you stated previously, 10 years ago we were in league 1... this would have had a significant impact on recruitment and we will not likely see the benefit of our premier league recruitment until probably from now onwards(ish)

[Piran]

Bring back Georges Prost, I say! I'm being flippant, as I know Georges had health problems, and returned to France, but what I believe is that he was a clever successful man who knew his job, and took care of most aspects below the first team. Maybe the present set-up will allow Matt Crocker to achieve similar results, only time will tell. Many points in the posts above are valid, regarding the knock-on from Saints' lower league journey, and one thing is for sure - it's a long-term project, and a lot of pressure to succeed. My reference to Prost is more about the ability of one good man to be allowed to do his own thing.  There are plenty of examples out there of successful set-ups, not just in football, but it is noticeable how often the best ones have one person calling the shots....

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, Piran said:

Bring back Georges Prost, I say! I'm being flippant, as I know Georges had health problems, and returned to France, but what I believe is that he was a clever successful man who knew his job, and took care of most aspects below the first team.

He is 73 years old.

[ErwinK1961]

2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

He is 73 years old.

So what?

[Smirking_Saint]

To reiterate, it’s probably not an overall issue with the coaching side of our academy

But we likely had poor recruitment pull during our League1/Championship days and Im not sure what affect Wilson had at the time but certainly his first team recruits were... hit and miss

[Matthew Le God]

28 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

So what?

Retired and 73 years old, he is hardly going to have the time or energy to turn things round.

[ErwinK1961]

32 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Retired and 73 years old, he is hardly going to have the time or energy to turn things round.

Did you miss the part where Piran said he was being flippant? And that he wasn’t suggesting Prost should come back, but that one person can have a big impact?

[Mystic Force]

We have been in the premier league since 2012. The generation of players who last made a significant impact were appearing in the match squad at age 17. I will let people start doing math.

[Daft Kerplunk]

23 hours ago, Smirking_Saint said:

To reiterate, it’s probably not an overall issue with the coaching side of our academy

But we likely had poor recruitment pull during our League1/Championship days and Im not sure what affect Wilson had at the time but certainly his first team recruits were... hit and miss

It is reasonably well known in football circles that the quality of coaching overall has declined from where it was. A great coach on a shit pitch will get more out of a player than a shit coach on a nice pitch. The facilities are very good, many of the newer coaches and recruitment not so much.