Solving the Immigration Problem

[Farmer Saint]

9 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

I’m not comparing a peaceful granny protesting to a protester committing crimes. What’s your view on this statistics? 

Eh, what statistics? What is the difference between the Palestine protesters and the balaclava men? Because one lot were arrested and thrown in a police van, and the others weren't. I'll give you a clue as to who were the ones arrested (clue: it was the lefties).

Edited 2 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[aintforever]

4 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Thats my point- you’re saying the police are justified in treating the right more harshly cause they perceive them to be a bigger threat. Why?

Being an organised group, wearing balaclavas and being led by a criminal doesn’t help. I think the old bill have got it spot on, they need to make an example. There is potential for real trouble with the migrant issue, you can’t have local inbreds taking the law into their own hands.

[Osvaldorama]

13 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

I’m not comparing a peaceful granny protesting to a protester committing crimes. What’s your view on this statistics? Everyone has ducked them

They won’t acknowledge the truth because the left prefer feelings over facts. Every time 

[egg]

24 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

“context” = whatever a politicised judge decides?
 

This is what the left don’t realise. If you base justice around feelings instead of facts, it will come back and haunt you when a right wing government gets back in. 
 

Judges are not politicised, that's nonsense. Politics may find their way into sentencing guidelines, and before that policing and policy, but Judges merely operate within the parameters laid out. As has been said, the appeal courts are there if the Judge gets it wrong at first instance. 

[Osvaldorama]

7 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Being an organised group, wearing balaclavas and being led by a criminal doesn’t help. I think the old bill have got it spot on, they need to make an example. There is potential for real trouble with the migrant issue, you can’t have local inbreds taking the law into their own hands.

There you go. This is the exact problem. You’re massively biased 😂. 
 

Youve bought into the idea that “the far right” are worse than any other protest group 

[Osvaldorama]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Judges are not politicised, that's nonsense. Politics may find their way into sentencing guidelines, and before that policing and policy, but Judges merely operate within the parameters laid out. As has been said, the appeal courts are there if the Judge gets it wrong at first instance. 

The entire justice system is currently politicised 

Sorry 

[Sir Ralph]

11 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Being an organised group, wearing balaclavas and being led by a criminal doesn’t help. I think the old bill have got it spot on, they need to make an example. There is potential for real trouble with the migrant issue, you can’t have local inbreds taking the law into their own hands.

We’re going round In circles. The figures show a huge difference - around 360 blm protests resulting in 135 arrests compared with 250 protests and 1,804 arrests for illegal migrant protests. The stats prove a significant and marked jump in arrests for lesser protests by illegal migrant protesters.

Youre justification is a perceived threat which means this radical jump in arrests is justified. I don’t think your explanation gets close to covering it. Hence why the police are being accused of being two tier.
 

Edited 1 hour ago by Sir Ralph

[egg]

1 minute ago, Osvaldorama said:

The entire justice system is currently politicised 

Sorry 

You base your view on perception. 

I'll base mine on reality. 

[Farmer Saint]

A quick outline for @Sir Ralph. As you can see below, the actually crime punishment, although important, only makes up a proportion of the sentence.

 

Key Principles of Sentencing

Retribution:

The punishment must fit the crime.

The offender pays a fair penalty for the harm they caused.

Deterrence (Stopping Future Crimes):

General Deterrence: The sentence warns the public so other people do not commit the same crime.

Specific Deterrence: The sentence teaches the specific offender a lesson so they do not break the law again.

Rehabilitation (Reforming the Offender):

The system tries to fix the root cause of the criminal behavior.

It uses tools like drug treatment, counseling, or job training.

Incapacitation (Protecting the Public):

Dangerous people are locked away in prison.

This stops them from hurting more people in the community.

Restoration (Healing the Harm):

The offender must repair the damage done to the victim or the community.

Examples include paying money for damage or doing community service.

Proportionality (Fairness):

The penalty must match how bad the crime was.

Small crimes get light punishments. Serious crimes get heavy punishments.

[egg]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

A quick outline for @Sir Ralph. As you can see below, the actually crime punishment, although important, only makes up a proportion of the sentence.

 

Key Principles of Sentencing

Retribution:

The punishment must fit the crime.

The offender pays a fair penalty for the harm they caused.

Deterrence (Stopping Future Crimes):

General Deterrence: The sentence warns the public so other people do not commit the same crime.

Specific Deterrence: The sentence teaches the specific offender a lesson so they do not break the law again.

Rehabilitation (Reforming the Offender):

The system tries to fix the root cause of the criminal behavior.

It uses tools like drug treatment, counseling, or job training.

Incapacitation (Protecting the Public):

Dangerous people are locked away in prison.

This stops them from hurting more people in the community.

Restoration (Healing the Harm):

The offender must repair the damage done to the victim or the community.

Examples include paying money for damage or doing community service.

Proportionality (Fairness):

The penalty must match how bad the crime was.

Small crimes get light punishments. Serious crimes get heavy punishments.

Credit to you for wasting your time with him, but why I'm not sure. When the concept of context is lost, you've lost all hope. 

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

We’re going round In circles. The figures show a huge difference - around 360 blm protests resulting in 135 arrests compared with 250 protests and 1,804 arrests for illegal migrant protests. The stats prove a significant and marked jump in arrests for lesser protests by illegal migrant protesters.

Youre justification is a perceived threat which means this radical jump in arrests is justified. I don’t think your explanation gets close to covering it. Hence why the police are being accused of being two tier.
 

How are you comparing those? Have you gone through and compared each of the cases to each other? That sounds pretty mental that you are generalising like that. Where are those stats from anyway?

[Sir Ralph]

1 minute ago, Farmer Saint said:

A quick outline for @Sir Ralph. As you can see below, the actually crime punishment, although important, only makes up a proportion of the sentence.

 

Key Principles of Sentencing

Retribution:

The punishment must fit the crime.

The offender pays a fair penalty for the harm they caused.

Deterrence (Stopping Future Crimes):

General Deterrence: The sentence warns the public so other people do not commit the same crime.

Specific Deterrence: The sentence teaches the specific offender a lesson so they do not break the law again.

Rehabilitation (Reforming the Offender):

The system tries to fix the root cause of the criminal behavior.

It uses tools like drug treatment, counseling, or job training.

Incapacitation (Protecting the Public):

Dangerous people are locked away in prison.

This stops them from hurting more people in the community.

Restoration (Healing the Harm):

The offender must repair the damage done to the victim or the community.

Examples include paying money for damage or doing community service.

Proportionality (Fairness):

The penalty must match how bad the crime was.

Small crimes get light punishments. Serious crimes get heavy punishments.

I understand how sentencing works but it doesn’t address the point being made. I’m talking about the massive difference in policing and arrests before you get to sentencing. Around 135 arrests across 360 blm protests compared with 1,804 across 250 illegal migrant protests. What objectively explains this. Nobody has answered this huge disparity.

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Credit to you for wasting your time with him, but why I'm not sure. When the concept of context is lost, you've lost all hope. 

I'm perplexed to be honest. I have no idea how he thinks this is the way to debate? It's like he's just gone onto ChatGPT again, put a really simple question in and treated it as fact, without applying how the law actually works.

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

I understand how sentencing works but it doesn’t address the point being made. I’m talking about the massive difference in policing and arrests before you get to sentencing. Around 135 arrests across 360 blm protests compared with 1,804 across 250 illegal migrant protests. What objectively explains this. Nobody has answered this huge disparity.

How many people were at the protests? That's a very important parameter you are missing to start with.

Edited 1 hour ago by Farmer Saint

[Farmer Saint]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_anti-immigration_protests_(2025–present)

Stats here say 180 people have been arrested out of 150k protesters. Where are your numbers from?

[Osvaldorama]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

Credit to you for wasting your time with him, but why I'm not sure. When the concept of context is lost, you've lost all hope. 

I know it descends to insults and stuff on here, but  I am genuinely trying to understand your points here. 

I hand on heart feel like a few of you are just brainwashed to hate anyone patriotic. And I don’t understand it at all. 
 

It’s like you want to celebrate when the government attack us. It’s mental to me, honestly 

[egg]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

I'm perplexed to be honest. I have no idea how he thinks this is the way to debate? It's like he's just gone onto ChatGPT again, put a really simple question in and treated it as fact, without applying how the law actually works.

Yep. The politics of perceived grievance, amplified by the echo chambers of SM. 

Trying to debate it is like trying to train a deaf and dumb dog. Absolutely fucking pointless. 

[egg]

Just now, Osvaldorama said:

I know it descends to insults and stuff on here, but  I am genuinely trying to understand your points here. 

I hand on heart feel like a few of you are just brainwashed to hate anyone patriotic. And I don’t understand it at all. 
 

It’s like you want to celebrate when the government attack us. It’s mental to me, honestly 

It's very simple. Judges aren't politicised. That's the only point I've made to you. 

[Sir Ralph]

19 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

How are you comparing those? Have you gone through and compared each of the cases to each other? That sounds pretty mental that you are generalising like that. Where are those stats from anyway?

Home affairs committee report. The stats speak for themselves across a large sample. Your wrong to suggest that you need to manually compare each case individually before the overall picture and difference can be considered valid.

 

If 1,000’people dies of lung cancer and 750 smokes would you say that you need to check each case individually before you can say there is a trend?

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Sir Ralph

[Sir Ralph]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep. The politics of perceived grievance, amplified by the echo chambers of SM. 

Trying to debate it is like trying to train a deaf and dumb dog. Absolutely fucking pointless. 

You have provided no evidence to support your view which isn’t a surprise

[Osvaldorama]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Yep. The politics of perceived grievance, amplified by the echo chambers of SM. 

Trying to debate it is like trying to train a deaf and dumb dog. Absolutely fucking pointless. 

Is there a limit to your patience? 
 

How many armies worth of people have to be imported before you deem it an issue? 
How many people would have to be murdered and raped by unvetted criminals before you would be angry?

You seem to have an attitude that’s like “I’m better than you because I’m more open minded than you, because open borders are amazing”

But is there a limit to it? At what point would you become angry too?

Would you feel as dismissive if something happened to one of your family? 

[egg]

Just now, Sir Ralph said:

You have provided no evidence to support your view which isn’t a surprise

Ha!! FFS, I'm not making any claims! Your man has said judges are politicised - that's for him to prove. I don't have to prove a negative. 

[badgerx16]

19 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

There you go. This is the exact problem. You’re massively biased 😂. 
 

Mr Pot meet Mr Kettle.

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Home affairs committee report. The stats speak for themselves across a large sample. Your wrong to suggest that you need to manually compare each case individually before the overall picture and difference can be considered valid.

 

Why am I wrong?

How many were at the protests, as that really matters to the points you're making? If there were 400 at BLM and 1m at the right wing, then obviously that means the arrests were over-zealous on the right side, and vice-versa. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Osvaldorama said:

Is there a limit to your patience? 
 

How many armies worth of people have to be imported before you deem it an issue? 
How many people would have to be murdered and raped by unvetted criminals before you would be angry?

You seem to have an attitude that’s like “I’m better than you because I’m more open minded than you, because open borders are amazing”

But is there a limit to it? At what point would you become angry too?

Would you feel as dismissive if something happened to one of your family? 

I'm not having that debate - I've seen the squabble up there ^^^ and have no interest in joining in.

If you could please post up your evidence that Judges (not other parts of the justice system, just the Judges themselves) are politicised, that'd be good though.

Alternatively, you could just acknowledge that you made it up to suit your narrative. 

[Osvaldorama]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Mr Pot meet Mr Kettle.

 

Yes. I’m biased toward wanting a better country for our children. As you should be. 
 

Instead you seem biased for… everything else except that 

Edited 1 hour ago by Osvaldorama

[Sir Ralph]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Ha!! FFS, I'm not making any claims! Your man has said judges are politicised - that's for him to prove. I don't have to prove a negative. 

But again you take a stance  and then when challenged say it’s nothing to do with me and I ain’t saying anything. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Sir Ralph

[Sir Ralph]

1 minute ago, egg said:

I'm not having that debate - I've seen the squabble up there ^^^ and have no interest in joining in.

If you could please post up your evidence that Judges (not other parts of the justice system, just the Judges themselves) are politicised, that'd be good though.

Alternatively, you could just acknowledge that you made it up to suit your narrative. 

Prove they aren’t

[Osvaldorama]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm not having that debate - I've seen the squabble up there ^^^ and have no interest in joining in.

If you could please post up your evidence that Judges (not other parts of the justice system, just the Judges themselves) are politicised, that'd be good though.

Alternatively, you could just acknowledge that you made it up to suit your narrative. 

A man just got sentenced to two years in prison for throwing a plastic bottle and swearing 😂😂😂😂

 

Meanwhile actual rapists are given suspended sentences. 
 

Are you really trying to argue this?

[badgerx16]

11 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

 

I hand on heart feel like a few of you are just brainwashed to hate anyone patriotic. And I don’t understand it at all. 
 

I don't think that to be "patriotic" you need to wear a balaclava.

Edited 1 hour ago by badgerx16

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, Sir Ralph said:

Prove they aren’t

Guilty until proven innocent eh? Again, you know that isn't how you debate, the burden of proof is on the person that made the claim.

[egg]

Just now, Sir Ralph said:

But again you take a stance  and then when challenged say it’s nothing to do with me and I ain’t saying anything. It’s standard practice 

Of the points made, I've commented only on the wholly unsupporrted allegation that Judges are politicised. The person making that allegation simply needs to evidence the claim or acknowledge they made it up. It's very simple.

Re the rest, I keep telling you that I'm not debating with you, and I haven't, and won't. I'll acknowledge you no further. 

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Prove they aren’t

How many protesters Ralph?

[aintforever]

24 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

There you go. This is the exact problem. You’re massively biased 😂. 
 

Youve bought into the idea that “the far right” are worse than any other protest group 

It doesn’t matter if they are right or left wing, the potential for trouble and possible loss of life with this migrant thing is obvious - that’s why the police need to stamp down hard.

[Osvaldorama]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

I don't think that to be "patriotic" you need to wear a balaclava.

1) They took them off

2) The media and government immediately doxxed and turned the entire establishment against people that were there 

 

Notice how just stop oil etc. didn’t feel scared ?

 

The fact hard working men feel they had to protect their identities is actually proof of what sir Ralph and I are saying. The system is politicised

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

 

Yes. I’m biased toward wanting a better country for our children. As you should be. 
 

Instead you seem biased for… everything else except that 

Get off social media  it"s not doing you any good.

[Osvaldorama]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

Get off social media  it"s not doing you any good.

I could say the same about you

[Sir Ralph]

10 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

How many protesters Ralph?

The numbers aren’t quoted. Could have been more BLM protesters or more illegal migrant protesters. The assault numbers on police gives an indication to the level of disorder versus arrests which is a better measure and it’s disproportionate to the illegal migrant protests. Government fact. 
 

You keep saying that each case needs to be tested individually before a trend can be demonstrated across a wide sample (which is scientifically unsound). In fact researchers tests differences specifically across large samples so that they can control anomalies 

therefore if a medical report came back with a 1,000 people dead from lung cancer ans 750 of them smoked, would you say there was a trend or that each case should be individually assessed before a trend could be identified that smoking caused lung cancer?

Edited 1 hour ago by Sir Ralph

[egg]

1 minute ago, Osvaldorama said:

A man just got sentenced to two years in prison for throwing a plastic bottle and swearing 😂😂😂😂

 

Meanwhile actual rapists are given suspended sentences. 
 

Are you really trying to argue this?

I'm intrigued how you think this works. Do you seriously think judges are taken aside at the judicial college and told they must go tough on fascists? And that appeal judges are ordered not to interfere with OTT sentences? Is that how this works in your opinion? 

You've made something up to suit your narrative. Pity you haven't got the minerals to do admit that. 

[Sir Ralph]

1 minute ago, Osvaldorama said:

I could say the same about you

They are a weird bunch- they keep throwing aspersions which could equally be applied to them

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, Sir Ralph said:

The numbers aren’t quoted. Could have been more BLM protesters or more illegal migrant protesters. The assault numbers on police gives an indication to the level of disorder versus arrests which is a better measure and it’s disproportionate to the illegal migrant protests. Government fact. 
 

You keep saying that each case needs to be tested individually. If a medical report came back with a 1,000 people dead from lung cancer ans 750 of them smoked, would you say there was a trend or that each case should be individually assessed before a trend could be considered that smoking caused lung cancer?

It depends on if 750 of them had it as a hereditary trait or not.

You need numbers of protesters to make anything you have said make sense. Try and get hold of those numbers and we can continue this tomorrow. In addition, can you please post the link to the Home Affairs Committee report as I'd like to read it.

[Osvaldorama]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm intrigued how you think this works. Do you seriously think judges are taken aside at the judicial college and told they must go tough on fascists? And that appeal judges are ordered not to interfere with OTT sentences? Is that how this works in your opinion? 

You've made something up to suit your narrative. Pity you haven't got the minerals to do admit that. 

I would say that there is a single ideologically dominant framework that now controls the civil service, academia, judiciary, BBC, and NGOs etc. 
 

And that the state apparatus is aligned toward promoting mass immigration at the expense of the native, taxpaying population, regardless of how people feel or vote. 
 

I have no doubt that some (including you guys) think that you are being virtuous, when actually you promoting Bolshevism 2.0

Edited 1 hour ago by Osvaldorama

[Farmer Saint]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq0lr5r46z5jo

Danny Thommo turning on the waterworks I see 🤣🤣🤣🤣

He's such a brave, brave patriot.

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, Osvaldorama said:

I would say that there is a single ideologically dominant framework that now controls the civil service, academia, judiciary, BBC, and NGOs etc. 
 

And that the state apparatus is aligned toward promoting mass immigration at the expense of the native, taxpaying population, regardless of how people feel or vote. 

Do you genuinely feel like that? Hand on heart? Swear on your kids lives etc?

Edited 1 hour ago by Farmer Saint

[Osvaldorama]

2 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Do you genuinely feel like that? Hand on heart? Swear on your kids lives etc?

Did you get a refund on your degree yet? 😂

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, Osvaldorama said:

Did you get a refund on your degree yet? 😂

I've got 2 degrees TBF, but I'm not sure why I would, it's enabled me to retire at 38 so it's done me pretty well 👍

[Gloucester Saint]

Danny Thommo the patriot? 😂😂. Ossie - if you think he’s so great, join him in the Pompey end. The home sections are for SOUTHAMPTON fans. 
#Ossietheskate 🐟🐟🐟

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Gloucester Saint

[Osvaldorama]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

I've got 2 degrees TBF, but I'm not sure why I would, it's enabled me to retire at 38 so it's done me pretty well 👍

Your mums a dad and your dads a dinner lady

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

I would say that there is a single ideologically dominant framework that now controls the civil service, academia, judiciary, BBC, and NGOs etc. 
 

And that the state apparatus is aligned toward promoting mass immigration at the expense of the native, taxpaying population, regardless of how people feel or vote. 
 

I have no doubt that some (including you guys) think that you are being virtuous, when actually you promoting Bolshevism 2.0

There's no discussion if your head/echo chambers have convinced you of that. 

On that bombshell, I'll bow out. 

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, Osvaldorama said:

Your mums a dad and your dads a dinner lady

Eh?