um pahars

I think you'll find there have been a number of posts (and threads) on here, where they have been criticised, particularly for their behaviour around the SISU approach time and their failure to implement Plan B at around the same time. But I think that criticism has to be put in context, looked at rationally and then also balanced fairly against the mistakes of others, (in fact, their first season could be called a relative success as costs were reduced, net debt reduced to it's lowest level for a few years and on the pitch we got to the play offs). After doing that, I find it difficult to suggest that Hone and co should take most of the blame as you are suggesting. IMHO, whilst they are worthy of being blamed for some poor decision making, I think others are more culpable for the position we find ourselves in. Relegation the first time around turned this Club upside down and relegation this time around will be the killer blow. Those acts will be the ones that killed this Club and Hone and co are/were not around for both. Their actions at the end of their tenure were poor by anyones standards, but putting it in perspective, overspending by a few million (or a blip as David Jones called it at the AGM) is not what has brought this Club to it's knees. It certainly never helped, but a few million overspend pales into comparison when judged against the millions lost from the top line and the calamitous decisions made this season which may well be the final straw.

Effectively two wins and we have to overhaul two teams. Next week : Bristol City v Saints Watford v Swansea (midweek) Sheff Utd v Barnsley Preston v Norwich Out of that, being honest maybe Watford could get something. This will go to the wire!!!!!!!!!!!

Looking at the 8 game current form table, then Barnsley and Watford are only slightly ahead of us. Derby were also just above us, but todays result pulls them away. Interestingly Plymouth, who got spanked by Derby are below us, but perhaps their 7/8 points advantage is too great to overhaul. Could be perhaps any 2 from Saints, Watford, Barnsley and Norwich (But Donny, Derby & Forest not out of the woods). Problem for us though, is that we need to get on a run!!!!!!

Looking at the table as it stands now, it's a mixed afternoon, BUT the headline news is that we are now 4 points from safety, effectively 5 due to our goal difference. On top of that the club 4/5 points ahead of us (Barnsley) have a game in hand. The only bright side is Norwich losing. We have a game in hand but are 4 (effectively 5 points behind them).

Doncaster must be on a hell of a run. Norwich could be struggling with this score and of course our game against Watford will be massive. Barsnley are another team we want to fall back down.

Absolutely!!!!! The major shareholders should be doing some very deep soul searching and they should be looking to get us out of this hole. Continuing with the status quo is proving a shambolic strategy. If protests start to focus their minds, then I'm all up for that. They need to be looking to find the right people to lead this Club out of the hole we currently find ourselves in. Lowe has little or no support for remaining in situ, and those with the power need to be doing something, as opposed to sitting idly by and watching a busted flush lead us to our second relegation in a few years. There's a whole world out there and yet for some blinkered reason Wilde and Lowe's cabal still pretend that he is the answer to our woes, unbelievable.

And I would counter that the decisions taken by Lowe and others a few seasons ago cost this Club millions in loss of revenue. In the intervening period other decisions also cost the Club £££££'s. And then of course this season, I would also counter that decisions taken by Lowe this season have cost us millions as well (each 1,000 bums on seat = £500k over a season). Forget taking it to individual fans and saying how their personal choice is impacting on the Club, it glosses over the bigger picture and fails to highlight the real culprits of our dire situation. It's akin to emotional blackmail, with the line being trotted out being, "Without your money this Club will suffer", and the correct response should be, "With our money this Club has still suffered due to your incompetence". A number of individuals (with Lowe IMHO being the biggest culprit) have cost this Club more in terms of money than any fan ever has or will.

I doubt anyone at the Reading Corporate banking Office had ever heard of Jan Poortvliet!!!!!!

If a manager is failing, you don't stick with him just in case the new manager is just as bad!!!!!!!!! Or you don't keep him, just because the one before him wasn't good either!!!! You go out and find the best manager you can. It may not come off, but just because there have been poor decisions in the past, it shouldn't preclude you from trying to make the best ones going forward. Otherwise you're just consigning yourself yo sticking with someone you know isn't right for you. Will the next CEO be better than Lowe???, who knows, but to stick with Lowe just because of the fear of the unknown must be the most defeatist argument out there. If you think Lowe is right for the Club, then whilst I may not agree with it, at least it is a valid viewpoint, but to stick with him because of a fear of a new man is ridiculous. Then the major shareholders should be tasked with recruiting a new man for the right reasons. I'm not blaming the supporters here, the blame lays firmly with those who refuse to try and get us out of this mess and instead prop up a failing CEO overseeing a failing regime.

As almost everyone on here has said. You started this thread and then disappeared, without letting us know what was said, the context, how widespread it was etc. Most people on here agree wholeheratedly that OTT abuse is not the answer, but they have also said that that is not what they have expereinced at SMS this season. So would you like to clarify your first post, as at the moment it looks as though you've just thrown a hand grenade in and then retired??? If it was a few individuals, then that is not the same as what some are trying to make out on here.

We indeed have to be successful and it is my contention that we will not have that success whilst Lowe is involved to the degree he is, and as long as we pursue his mad, hair brained strategy of Total Football. His judgement since returning has been found to be severely wanting. Why should we believe that all of a sudden he will be able to turn it all around, reverse his mad strategy and achieve something that he has never come close to in recent seasons. Eben if he somehow managed to turn it around (something I very much doubt), then what is to say that even if that is successful, he won't go and fck it all up again. He had his chance, did well, then overstayed his welcome. He's come back and fcked it up royally again, yet people still want him here, with their best reasoning being they don't know what will replace him. That has to be the lamest and most pathetic of endorsements and in many ways, it's pretty weak and certainly not forward thinking. It's akin to sticking with someone who you know is not right for you, only because you're afraid of what is out in the bigger world. What a backward and defeatist attitude. We're going nowhere under Lowe (actually we're going backwards), yet people aren't prepared to be forward thinking, optimistic and try and grab an alternative. Shameful IMHO. We need to break this strategy and we need to do something to break the circle of decline. Additionally, with regards a new figurehead, I also think that a unifying figure might be able to galvanise a true Club spirit and that any plea they might make would not be received with the derision that Lowe's equivalent appeal would. However, the main turnaround will come with success on the pitch, success that looks remote as we stand here today.

Pulis = soon impossible to play 15 games this season, so get ready to cough up your dosh!!!!!!

I can only presume you really did stop attending games this season as you promised, because IMHO the support, given the numbers, has been fairly remarkable. There has been minimal barracking of the players, some wholesome support and until very recently, no protests against the board, as people's support has been channeled behind the players. You were making the same false allegations about our last relegation season, so I can only presume you're on a wind up. Absolute rubbish, risible and I thought wse had moved on from posting such garbage. A different Chairman could have implemented a number of different strateigies. A different manager could have implemented a number of different strategies. And these strategies could have been implemented within the financial constraints that we have to operate under. Whether they would have been worse, similar or better is up for conjecture, but to suggest our hands are tied, the dice rolled and there was nothing else that could have been done is something out of La La land.:rolleyes::rolleyes: We might as well just have carried on with Poortvliet if the manager makes no difference:D:D

Fcking hell nickh!!!!!!! I think the problem with Jan was not leaving him in charge for too long, but more the fact that he was employed in the first place. The last three games may be what you have a problem with, the rest of us call it the first 28 games which left us in an appalling state on and off the pitch. With that appointment and it's accompanying strategy Lowe has once again shown that he has been found wanting with regards the big decisions, even in the short term!!!!!!!!!!

There were still 5,000 more watching last season compared to this season. As soon as we dropped from the Premiership we lost 5,000+ of the fans who only come in the really good times (and very often to see who we were playing as much as watching Saints). This season, IMHO, we have lost the middle ground of supporters. Supporters who come if what is being dished up is honest, worthy of the price and is moderately successful (particularly at home). We're now down to our hard core and I worry that if things continue the way they are, then we may start losing a portion of these loyal, die hard supporters. Each of the above group of supporters are as worthy as each other and it's no good having a pop at them for not turning up, questioning their behaviour, motivation and habits are distinctly missing the point. They are who they are. Instead the question is simply why are they not turning up and what can be done to redress this?

On average, 5,000 more than we're getting this season were. And I have no doubt that with a degree of success and a spirit of unity, then even in this division I think this Club could easily pull in circa 25,000 crowds. Indeed, I'm sure that attendances would have been poor under any manager who had replicated Poortvliet's appalling record. BUT, although it is purely hypothetical, I really struggle to think of any other manager (maybe even Wigley:rolleyes:) who would have presided over such a disastrous start to a season. Pearson was no uber manager, but he was also not the pile of cacck that Poortvliet was. Additionally, I do wonder if a sense of unity would have been worthy of a couple of thousand on the gate, something Lowe and Poortvliet were never able to pull off.

I think a small part of the problem with Lowe is deeper, longer and more heartfelt. His mistakes far outweigh those made by Crouch and Wilde, both in number and in magnitude. Throw in a real lack of empathy with fans, some very divisive comments and an air of arrogance and I think it is alot harder for some to accept him back. But of course the main reason people are against Lowe's continuing presence is the simple fact that his decision making has once again been shown to be appalling. I cannot sit back and just "watch" Saints, when what I see is a poor imitation, in so many ways, of the Club I started out supporting (which was in Div 2, so I'm no football snob). Lowe is at the root of all the current problems, so I find it impossible just to turn up and ignore all the other stuff that is going on, because ultimately all that other stuff impacts on what happens on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon.

Firslty, it has to be down to the Manager/Head Coach. And then probably just as important in our case (due to the dominating influence and strategy employed at our Club), it is to do with those making the day to day decisions and setting the environment in which that Manager/Head Coach has to work. IMHO that is the CEO. With us, those two are entwined in establishing and overseeing the current strategy that is failing us big time, and resulting directly in lost points on the pitch and lost pounds off it. I personally fail to see how just changing one of these will work. Ultimately success on the pitch will be the biggest driver of this CLub, and the current set up and have not achieved that (and with regards the CEO that problem goes back even further). However, I also think it is bigger than merely success on the pitch, and I think the current CEO will never be able to reunite and/or galvanise the Club, even in good times. He is too implicated in and tarnished by our recent history and is a divisive figure.

I would agree that it is a combination of a leadership team that alienates some in the fanbase, combined with disastrous perfromances which have come as a direct result of that same leadership team's decisions and strategy. People come on here and pontificate about the stayaways. Then others moan that protesting or boycotts might push us into administration (something I'm sure Lowe won't be shy in spinning). But this regime has overseen a huge drop in attendances and a massive drop in revenue and it is their actions that are the root cause of the problem. Thefalling attendances are merely symptons of a much bigger and wider problem. If you want to solve this problem you have to address the root cause of it, and stop attacking the symptons and obviously consequences that are a direct result of it. .

This has been discussed at length as Window Cleaner has rightly pointed out, and the ownership/deal had been posted and debated on here under a few threads. It may have been Duncan Holley, but it was certainly made clear it was not a "gift". It certainly was never portrayed as a "free" gift by anyone connected to the Corbett's, but then again a shrewd eye followed by an interest free loan is something not to be sniffed at (and something I'm, sure we could do with at the moment!!!). Additionally, John Corbett's regular contributions to funding the Club is noted regularly in the Hagiology books, including paying the Club's wages out of his own pocket on a number of occasions. Maybe we could all do with reading what some put up here, because although at times this is a noddy internet message board with alot of ****** posted (alot of it by myself), there is also a very large amount of well informed information.

In the same way that we go out and recruit a manager, why don't we go out and recruit a suitably qualified CEO??? If the major shareholders had the vision and will then it would be eminently possible to go and recruit someone else. I'm certainly not advocating we just sit around and wait for a sugar daddy, I'm suggesting we go and recruit a competent CEO and maybe a unifying Chairman.

The Corbett's have no say with regard this piece of land, it is solely an asset of the PLC (although I reckon one of our creditors would have a charge on it!!!!). As far as I was aware John Corbett paid up front for the land, and then effectively sold it to the Club accepting his money (interest free) over a number of years as we could not have afforded to but it up front. I always thought it was originally bought to be either a training ground at some point in the future or even as a potential venue for a new ground.

It may have escaped your notice, but football matches are played in open "public" spaces with the public paying to be entertained. Support, songs, whingeing, moaning etc etc etc are all a part and parcel of football. And as others have said all they could generally hear was exactly what you have described. Now if the odd nutter takes it to excess then please let's not take it out on others who have done no more than what millions of fans have done over the years.

If the choice was between the fans being pssed off with him for shutting the corners and stopping the buses, or being pssed off with him for overseeing the Club go into administration, then I think the choice would be rather obvious. I think Crouch is brash, gung ho and at times too emotional, but I also don't think he's (a) stupid or (b) be prepared to preside over the Club going into administration.