Frank's cousin

See the Daily Hate readers out in force again.... FFS... you why is it that these 'cases' get so much additional publicity because the criminal is foreign? Someone above mentioned the 'illega iraqi' in the hit and run.... a hideous crime for sure, but 1 of 100s that occur in britain each each so why single this out? Firstly, the case is truely shocking and yes like 100% of normal brain functioning human beings, rape is destestable and should be punished appropriately within the law. But why isolate this case because the guy is 'allowed to stay'? He was 15 at the time which is disturbing - but has built a life which appears to indicate he has been rehabilitated, following being convicted and serving a sentance. Second one of the Great things about Great Britain, is our legal system that we have exported beyond out boarders, it does not always get things right, but it is FAIR even if sentance are sometimes lax. Secondly, as an advanced and civilised nation we do not have the death penalty (thank feck) and have signed up to Human rights legislation and as such within that legislation this individual has been able to continuue his life rather than return to a country where the criminal justice system is unlikely to provide him with a fair trial and the death sentance apply. It seems to me that some of you want to chose only the 'nice' bits of human rights legislation ... eg the bits that provide you with yours and protect you, yet not the bits that actually mark us out as a far better and more civilised nation, even if at times it challenges what we might feel is morally right. I dont feel comfortable with this case as clearly he should he should have served a longer sentance, but if given the right to stay, and build a life, that is in fact a seperate issue as to whether he served appropriate time for his crime. This is not about some liberalist agenda or left wing namby pamby ****e... (most law lords and judges tend to sit on the right anyway), but about a legal framework that is part of an advanced civilised nation. He may well be 'f*cking scum' - I dont know, whether he shown remorse or not or truelly changed his ways, but he was convicted, sentanced, served his time and got on with his life - and that is surely what should happen. Yes, the victim may not be as fortunate, but you cant attack a whole system simply because of a case against an 'immigrant' and because you think that makes it a special case - its not different from any victim of sexual offences in this country... where are the posts on all those lenient sentances or pity for those victims? By singling this case out you imply another agenda And that is what Pancake was alluding to.

For me that is it in a nutshell... teh rest are either happy to stay in middle table mediochrity (they cant afford anything else) or ****e scared of the drop having got themselves into debt and contractual obligations that could mean serious problems if relegated... the majority of games thus played in fear, often negative football... and teh media 'pundits' and prem league and sky carry on spreading the myth its the greatest league in the world... certainly probably watched by huge numbers in the far east, but where is the competition? For me teh greatest league in the world should apply to the league where the competition is broad and deep, not a few rich mega clubs made richer by billionnaires and archair subscription. Of course to some extent all leagues are the same even within the NPC, but at least the gaps are not as ridiculous, and the number sides that could end up in teh top 6 is as least 15-18, based on budget and players, if not manager and spirit. Ye, I enjoyed the 27 years but alot of that was fuelled by the fact that teams like Forest could win, Saints could finish second and sign a current European Footballer of the year... the later prem years, showed us merely the limits of what we could hope for not only without investment, but how culturally players were more motivated by cash and short cuts to success, than the joy of the game playing in a squad that was a real TEAM, who worked for each other as well has having an affinity for the club. Now I hate Man U with a passion and their arrogant fans and miserable **** of a manager, but one thing is for sure. Thie success is made easier by the fact they can keep their best talent and afford the wages necessary to attract the best, but Fergie HAS at least instilled in tehm that sence of what it means to play at that club, more so than those at Chelski and Arsenal and to me that has been the difference between them and their relative success... its also what NA has instilled in our team and why its so enjoyable right now, not just results, but results with spirit.

I agree with Alps to some extent. The 'normal' expectation is for fans to want to be the very best ands compete at the highest possible (realistic) Level. But if you look at what the prem has become, its insipid 'values', greed of players, the fact that without 200 mil+ investment its impossible to really compete, its no longer a 'sporting' challenge in the truest sense, but one in which you can buy success. Its a shame, because if you look at leagues such as the Bundesliga, you get more sides being competitive now and again as young players stay, at least for a few years (before heading for Bayern Munich or abroad) so you see clubs of similar size to saints winning the odd title and doing well in the CL... even if they eventually have to start again when teh best playesr are lured away... we will never get that again in the prem, unless the rules are changed on transfers under 22... which will never happen. Culturally, pour young players seem hell bent on a big money move the moment anyone sniffs around and so its impossible to build a side in that way...

A couple of 'toilet traders'? (say in mock Withnail and I accents)

A couple of musings... 1. Cortese a legend? No. That comes with time as others have pointed out 2. Whinging about 'ticket tax' etc - Sorry, this is stupid, the club sets a budget and generates income to meet its financial commitments and contractual obligations. We all know that in the NPC abot 85% of this will need to come from fans pockets - whetehr that is through a single revenue stream or multiple makes no difference. The fact that its through multiple revenue streams does mean we have a bit more choice, eg do you buy a shirt or not, or how many pies you chose to eat. I am not saying its not expensive, especially during these economic times and as we can see, there are empty seatsat ALL grounds even in the prem these days, but a £600 ST is £11.53 a week, or 3 and 1/2 pints, so if you can afford the beer, you can afford the ST. Sure you may have to make a choice, same as nearly everyone about what you can and can’t afford...sadly that's life. 3. But hte ticket tax says the club don’t value its customers or encouraging support from those unable to get an ST? I do not know the business model that NC is operating to, but it’s not difficult to assume that its one that is designed to drive ST sales as much as possible - ST sales give the club cash in the bank up front and support the longer term financial planning, makes sense to me... 4. The constant whinging and moaning about NC by some - no one is perfect, and yes in an ideal world there would be nothing to moan about... but put it into perspective against what has been achieved in the last 2 years and it becomes at best a bit self indulgent and selfish, at worst a classic case of 'What have the Roman's ever done for us?' As a result, I suspect that some of those still going on about their little gripes will never be satisfied as their 'worries' are fuelled not by NC's actions but by their own attitudes and beliefs about football club ownership 5. Champions league is a lofty ambitions - what is wrong with comparing yourselves to the best? Setting the very highest bench mark in terms of ambition and the rating of success - would those laughing at the suggestion feel happy if NC had said our aim was to be mid table also rans (even if more realistic, hardly inspiring is it?) Sure we will never be a Barcelona, or even a Porto, but nothing wrong in looking at Barca and aiming for a similar model, of developing home grown talent that wants to stay and play – it’s about creating a culture that is appealing to fans, players alike... lofty ambitions that will be challenged by the agents and greedy players alike, but the desire should surely be praised? Personally, I don’t ever believe we will get to the CL. We will never be able to compete financially, and if we were lucky to bring on a crop of youngsters that were of that grade as a group, the best would be lured away to the richer clubs, as nearly all players these days want short cuts to success... funnily enough, I think we could do it if we were in any other league with the exception of Prem, La Liga or Seria A... in Germany for example, you don’t get the same old same old all the time and the reason to me is obvious. Young players STAY at their clubs until around 22 or so, so a club that invests in youth has some luck in their crop can have a successful couple of seasons before the best are poached... Beyer Leverkusen a few years back when they had a 22k capacity ground, Look at Dortmund again just now (yes they have 80k stadium full each week, but remember the ticket price average is about a 3rd of what the PL is)... and that for me is why we won’t make C. Our best will be lured away before they are 18/19, hoovered up by the clubs that are in my opinion afraid of proper competition and a leveler playing field... and a culture in which kids want everything today rather than works and graft and get the riches they deserve when they have actually made a real contribution at a club. 6. So in my book, NA will be a legend if we were promoted this year, and we stayed up next season. However, to do that he would need the support of NC, and fans willing to pay their share of that success. As far as I am concerned, NC has already delivered on a great deal and the drive towards a culture that is about WINNING is clear. Sure NC has an attitude that you are either 'with me or against me' but I dare say no one moans about that drive at Man U as seen in Fergie... there its complemented.

Golden Post surely - PMSL ...LOL splutter. ;-)

Scoring a goal on avaergae every 11.5 minutes... should be 4-0 just before half time .... Although I miss the saucy nuns, I am happy to wait until they are really needed...

Does that mean I have to wait for the saucy nuns?

LOL at the ignorance of those determined to slag off fellow fans as they want to justify why they deserve a ticket more for a particular game... If you want priority get and ST. Cant afford it? cut down on the booze. I am sure all those 'hard men proper fans' spend more than £11.53 a week on beer, which would buy you a £600 ST....

H Ha ha ha.... do you not get the Thatcherite mentality of all this, thought you love those tory ******s? Simple: Just as the anti-christ Thatcher did (and that limp feckwit Cameron who was obvioulsy shat out of her back side) - Cortese is merely gioving choice to his cutomers on how they chose to fund the club and its success... but you tories are always the same, only support and action when its suits you and have have no self awareness when it comes to slagging the very principles that they defend when its one of their own... LOL

Here we go again...Why dont fans see it as it is? We have a budget to pay for players and wegaes and all teh stuff we need to progress... given we are in the NPC approx 90% of the income to reach our budgetary needs comes from the fans pockets... now whether you charge it all in one go as a high ticket price, or split over various commercial revenue generating option is the choice the club makes...Spliting it makes sense as it means fans have more choice on what they spend their money on... what would you prefer in life - a single income tax, or a system we have now where VAT is added to things and you chose to buy what you want so pay the tax you want? same concept. As with government, they need the revenue to provide the service, less tax, crappier service (which teh tories dont mind as they have enough to go private), same with Saints, pay less 'tax', crappier side... You cant have one without the other so plaese for the love of.... cease this insestant moaning unless you are prepared to say catagorically you would be happier staying mid table in the NPC to keep things cheaper...

Again be careful - if offered 5 mil and no transfer request from Lambert, taken from that 5 mil would be to cost of paying off his contract etc... I posted on the Pompey takeover thread, that often the contract value, is ignored by most fans when players are sold... obviously more important when you have a higher earner on say a 3 year remaining - if sold cheap to get the wages off the the books, the net from the sale can be miniscule... which I belioeve is why Pompey depsite selling players actually still saw their net debt increase... Selling lambert in Jan would make no sense to anyone really - he woudl cost Newcastle more than in summer, and any player at saints might as well wait and see if playing in teh prem with us first and what tehy have in tehir existing contracts re wages on promotion is also a factor...

Very good shout - also in 'we are Marshall' - more long term though than just a squite though surely?

.... thought Lowe comming back might save us financially, Wilde in partnership as the people's champion... bets of both worlds....ahrrrr.. still think hindsight when the pain has gone might see him as a lesser evil than many - would not have bankrupted us had he not been ousted, ad naturally we have far better now... but it could as we have seen at many othetr clubs been so much worse... but for ML and NC. .... That Redflapps was a ****...oh sorry, thats actually true is it not?

This - make me chuckle at the stupidity of nationalists when they dont relaise the current concept of Englishness dates from around 1066, er when we wer French, oh and the Roman influence and Saxons prior to that... all bringing elemenst of tehir langugae which has stuck and evolved... anyone of them care to read ;let alone understand 'Old English' ... LOL... all naturally put into perspective when humans have been around for approx 2 mil years most of that tiem with the only borders being geographic/topical features, on a planet that is 4500 mil years old and it shows just how pathetic (or unevolved ;-)) these nationlist are... As to how soon we all speak the same languge, that depends on how long it takes for the good folks of teh planet to realise there is feck all to be gained from hating each other and more profit and success in trade if folks get along... but dont be surprized if its not Mandarin or hindustani I guess that 'joke' has obvious appeal to Daily Mail readers...so probably why I did not find it funny.

Far be it from me to 'defend' PFC, but I am not quite sure what attacking their fans over the current payment or non-payment of the Charities owed or the smaller creditors (under 2500) is that helpful in this debate... and credit should go to those fans who have pressurised the club to sort this, even if in part it is the responibility of Portpin? To me this whole saga is about at what point does the over extending of the finances that leads to a competitive advantage become in the words of many 'cheating' and what should be done about by the footballing authorities to prevent it happening again. We can laugh at pompey, we can enjoy their fall from grace with schardenfreude as is expected from the local rivalries, no harm in that, but it does not answer address the main issue here. That clubs are still not managing their financial affairs within what would be common sense approaches, let alone reckless and stupid. Corps made the point that Pompey sold players to the value of 70 mil when 58mil in debt and where did this go? I speculated about how depending on teh contractual obligations selling ceratin high earners on long term contracts in a fire sale can in effect be counter productive, if the compensation payments due are in some cases potentially more than the transfer revenue... and when you consider that these payments are often spread over time, its hardly surprizing taht as fans without access to the books or in most cases accounting degrees find it impossible to get to the bottom of, let alone pass comment that is based on no more than speculation. I suspect that of that 70 mil estimated transfer fee, a huge chunk would have gone straight back out again in compensation, paying over clubs installments on the original fees etc... I cant comment on whetehr there were any irregularities, thats up to the investigators, but it does not and should not distract us from the debate about WHY a club is allowed to get into such a financial mess, chasing a dream. For me this is not about pompey, but about the game as a whole. The 'private members club' rules being ineffective, ineffectual, and unlikely to be tightened because those making the rules play by the same financial tightrope... simply to try and avoid the 'dreaded drop' - they even were allowed to vote on giving themselves MORE money on relegation - to help with the stupid and excessiive contracts they were daft enough to sign up players for in teh first place... how the **** can this be acceptable in sport? It goes against the very principles of what sport is all about. Sky revenues have fuelled this greed and created a breakaway group that votes for its own good irrespective of what the FA say, what the remaining clubs in the FL think, with a complete disregard for the good of the game - its no surprize we see players doing the same when the example set by the PL clubs is so disfigured. Corps you have tried to suggest that at times we did the same, took advantage of the system so why are we any different? Well I wills ay again that depsite the fact most fans might not agree, the PLC regulations combined with Lowe, meant when in the prem we were sensible, broke even and avoided debt on wages and players, had a sensible wage structure and invested in infrastructure when we could - the result of which was relegation - sure other factors applied, but ultimately managers came and went because most in football dont want to operate within such tight purse strings, even Strachan who left most liekly because he would not get the cash he wanted- because we did not have it - which is why he was perhaps never as critical of Lowe as some, he understood the sense it it, even if not able to work with it... Some have said (in ignornace) that the stadium debt was 'beyond our means' - er no it was not, we continued to pay it in the CCC and in L1 and because we cut our cloth had actually reduced the overdraft at the time that Barclays got cold feet... so I do believe we can at least demonstrate a reasonable level of moral high ground against not just pompey, but all other clubs that have gone down the high risk route... and I am comfortable with that even if its meant we were draged through the mire. What i want to know is why the feck, no one is prepared to do something about the regulations. So many times we hear ****e from those within football that it should regulate itself, and avoid outside interference from government - usually because government is in teh back pocket of Murdoch and his vote swinging rags...but thats another debate - no balls, no ethics from the top, maybe we should not be surprized clubs get away with it, yet those who refuse to follow the pattern end up relegated... for me it stinks and perhaps why I would not be too dissapointed if we stay in the NPC - simply becasue I think teh prem is rotten, overhyped self proclaimed greatest leage in the world that encourages debt, extortionate ticket prices, foreign and domestic mercenaries with no real competition unless you spend 400mil on a new squad...not exactly a mouthwatering prospect for me.

Guess how you view the more tricky fixtures and maybe 'less dominating' results depend son how you have recalibrated your expectations for this season. Most at the start of the season would have been more than happy with a top 10 pushing for playoffs year, given where we were this time last season. IN that context the results have been far better, the performances strong, but maybe suggesting we still have a bit to do defensively (and baring in mind teh 'new' back four for this game) if we are to maintain this momentum, but overall a VERY positive start and on track... If however, you have considered that based on teh start we should be looking at auto promotion, then naturally the critisism of the MIllwall, and Forest games is pretty valid. I would say this. It is perhaps harsh (overly negative?) to critique performances on the expectation we should be 'walking this league' - just promoted and in a very tough league, with even tougher games to come for sure, but considering who we have played (certainly when considering Brightons opposition in teh first 6 games) and the adjustment necessary when you go up a level, surely we should be feckin' please with our best points tally in 76 years from teh first six games? Even if you consider that based on performance a point yesterday would have been a fairer reflection, but if you take that then 3 at Leicester would not have been unfair... IMHO, criticism is fair enoough, but please place it in some sort of context with respect to your expectations and then perhaps there will be less negative respponse to some of those considered the constant moaners. For a newly promoted side, I think 15/18 points and the type of football we are playing is pretty amazing myself. Yes we have frailties and improvement will be necessary if we want to be there or there abouts, but surely everyone knows that, especially those at the club. Next up a good test against Brum, who may think they have turned a corner with their 3-0 v Millwall. I suspect we will have learned a bit from Saturday and will expect a pretty good result. Enjoy the ride, things Saints are good right now!

We seem obsessed with age in dividing players.... which leads to the classic selection of the bigger stronger kids... which at times means the 20-0 when they come up against much smaller boys... would suggest that up until around 14, you could in theory divide the kids based on height or something ? Who knows what teh answer is, but given that on the continent they play on smaller pitches with smaller goals and 7 a side or 9 a side... it might just be a clue as to where we are going wrong? It keeps getting mentioned everytime we get beat by a more technically gifted side in a tournament, yet we never do anything about it...

I have to laugh Alps ;-) Yup we have not exactly defended great so far but if you look at the stats on the BBC we have had nearly 60% of pocession and 5 - 2 attempts on target... and according to the radio, playing some great stuff... yes we need some better organisation at the back ( given taht we have 2 new players there we have to give them more than 45 minutes to find their feet?) when we are playing this formation, but you cant say its all doom and gloom, surely you cant be that pessimistic so early in the season?

Ok, got in now on the nun front. Think like all good subs should also be given a run out if we are well ahead with 10 mins to go?

Where are the saucy nuns?

I agree with you on this... I am just interested in all this from a 'football' perspective... even if I have endulged in a littel baiting too... BUt below is another good point when Corps talks of teh 58mil debt and tehn players sold for 70 mil. where did the money go... as I see ai suspect alarge chunk of this went ion to players and agent pockets =- players in having their contracts terminated early in compensation and agent in the deals - and thjose compenation payments are likely to be high sell a player on 50k a week with three years left on a contract as an example - that equates to £7.8 mil. If that player was sold at 7mil, teh net debt woudl actually increase by 0.8mil (albeit spreaqd over 3 years) despite the club in theory receiving 7 mil in cash... That's an over simplication but I suspect that if you were selling rapidly to get the wages off the books quite a bit of that occured. Corps... I dont deny that there has been some serious shafting going on allegedly, but surely you cant expect us to believe 70 mil can dissapppear from the account and no serious Fraud investigation announced? that is simply naive to suggest that had their been a fraud of that nature, that even the PL/FA and their **** poor regulations would have spotted that and done something about it? I appreciate that thsi sdebate has gone around several houses, but there are still questions as Landford has mentioned... would be interested to hear your response to that... thats my 3 posts for the day so will have to wait now....

Its not so much the quality or lack of voice that makes these icons so special in my mind, be it Young, Dylan, Cash etc... its what they sang and whether teh emotion or the content of the lyric... same as Cobain etc - just seemed to come together perfectly - 'After the Gold rush' is a perfect example - and Young gets that lament to the end of an era and those that did not make it to perfection with haunting piano and voice combo... the crap gravelly voice of Cash on the American recordings such as Hurt etc... is just perfect. There are plenty of 'good' singers on X factor, but its utter sheidt because of crap music and saying feck all except 'I am another piece of shiedt shat out of the arse end of Cowell to extract cash from teh gulalble who need to be told what good music is and will listen to the crap I tell them to....''

Maybe you are right. But for those wanting to debate this sensibly, the whole escapade does ask some very serious questions about how far our loyalty to our clubs often over shadows what is wrong/right/ethical/moral with football. Whether there was criminal goings on or not, whether there have been those who exploited the rules and finances or not, whether the current owners are going to be great or not or how much money they still have... is all really irrelevent. What is important is that at the end of the day we have a club that was allowed to (either within or not the regulations) through various reasons get into debt to the tune of 120 mil. whether this was contributed to by the accounting practices of loans and other things should not distract attention away from the fact that a) they were able to procure and pay wages for a highly competitive squad, that gave them for a 2 year period a competitive advantage. Yes many clubs do this and as long as the debt is serviceable , whilst i do not agree with it, its certainly acceptable. The issue is that as soon as it becomes clear that it is NOT serviceable, the club SHOULD be under not only a moral and legal obligation but also stringent FA/PL/FL regulations to do everyting it can to reduce the debt burden. Now corps says they sold players which is fair enough, but its not an excuse to say 'where did this go' because if it is not known then something dodgy was going on... if it is known and above board and the money was used to pay of director loans or whatever, then why was this not factored into the budget? why at a time when it was reported that pompey were already 30 mil debt (not on infrastructure or mortgages on tangible assets) but as a result of high transfers and exceptional player contracts for a club of that size (the competitive advantage) - did they continue the spending (or were allowed tounder the current governance) - and yes we need to remove the over emotive crap just because its pompey if we want to debate this sensibly... If pompey fans are going to say that as fans they had no control so should not carry the can... they cant throw the argument back at us and say we were not protesting enough when we spent money we should have kept... afterall what influence could we have had? But the difference that goes some way in book to correcting that mistake was that Lowe risked relegation and fan hatred, by selling everything and playing kids in a bid to reduce the debt and get us back into a balanced set of books - OK so his reasons may have been selfish in that he will have known that administration would have wiped out his shareholding, but the club did it none the less (its why I lose the will to live when I see ignorant comments from our own fans that try and suggest he put us into admin out ot spite or 'waited' until after the deadline - he waited because having reduced the overdraft from 6 to 4 mil it was not expected and as soon as it arrived he did what he was legally required to do and call in teh administrators - yes the law is stricter for PLCs so he had no choice when in effect trading insolvently - yet because of pompey's complex ownership status - it seems this was not required? This begs the question, why are the PL/FA/FL rules not reflective of the highest financial regulations, rather than the lowest? Credit goes to those fans that are trying to get the club to honour the full payments to small creditors by the way. ..but those pompey fans that see no wrong doing in all this need to wake up and smell the coffee - it should come as no surprise that your local rivals will pick up on the 'feck em' attitude that many have portrayed. It goes without saying that had the fans as a majority been morally outraged and humble, the sympathy would have been difficult but it would have been there So what now? Yes there is a huge amount of speculation, which I indeed find confusing... especially around teh whole issue of ringfenced parachute payments - In the ideal world POmpey would have resigned themselves to paying of the debt at all costs, even if it meant relegation to L1 - afterall that is what we did...it may not have worked but we tried. Yet now we see the club spend not insignificant amounts on new players and wages whilst teh creditors large and small wait and wait - yes I understand the business concept in this... and some creditors may even agree - try and get promoted and then see a bigger and quicker return... but this is no different from the gambler who borrors just one more stake on the cahnce that all his winnnings will do if lucky enough is pay off the debt... and the risk is obvious. Are pompey fans not concerned right now about what is still unclear? that there may be a risk of further financial turmoil? What does it say about the state of the game? Its why for me this thread is actually important - not because its pompey, but because it highlights all that is wrong with football finance, and the ONLY way eventually something will be done about it is if fans choose to highlight it, even if going against teh 'loyalty' that is ingrained.

Phil we must have been writing at the same time.... for me, If the NewCO can indeed avoid fulfilling the terms of the agreement to come out of Admin as the OldCo has been liquidated - then as I see it the only option that would be appropriate would be the withdrawal of the golden share to the NEW CO or at least a very heary points penalty/relgation etc... otherwise what credibilty would there be in the FA/FL.... feck all, thats what. It makes me so angry as without credibility and a fair level playing field, sport is nothing but a sham. This rearly does need to be resolved... Why is the FL not looking into this? Surely they must recognise that this all needs clarification? Why teh feck does nobody care?