Frank's cousin

LOL . I'll let you get away with that this time you miserable sod ;-)

Feck Me - This sums it up for me... well said Alps

Nail on head with respect to this debate really ..... but IMHO how we view the actions and direction of NC, depends on your opinion of how a football club should be run in the modern age.... there are many who still feel that clubs have moved too far away from the heart of the community and that the overiding issues of money and business and media have alienated many fans, or at the very least make it very difficult for fans to reconcile the actions of clubs and the game with the traditionally held values. For me its always been a case of 'if you cant beat them, join them' - whether we like it it or not the modern game IS about money and business - the choices for clubs are simple, attract investment and be a business first to remain as competitive as possible in teh higher divisions and thus benefit from the gulf in TV revenues, or stay local and stay in the lower divisions, with the odd flirtation with success. We simply dont have the global brand or numbers or appeal to negotiate luractuve TV deals independently (even if that were possible under FA/Prem rules) to do a Barcelona - fan ownership with global success. So the only realistic option is to have a strong business focus without the distractions - and that means its going to go against many of the principles held dear by many with respect their club... in some respects its no different to Lowe. Customer focus? well sure I also think NC has maybe made a few mistakes , but mostly in the way price increases have been presented and communicated - the investment and price of success is increased costs - but the way in which fans have found out is perhaps not the best - If you give fans knowledge, then in general most will at the very least understand the rationale, even if still not pleased with the results. As to 600k? what is it worth as a CEO and Chairman of a 14mil TO company? Depends again on what how much we let the 'football club' ideal determine our judgement - there is a school of thought that would argue we need to think and act big if we are to succeed... think small and local and thats all we will ever be... and there are plenty of 'fan chairman/owners' that believe they know how to run clubs, and feck it up - We were blessed with Marcus who like all those who really understand business follow a golden rule... know the limits of your knowledge - and get in experts to run thsoe areas beyond your knowledge base. Saints needed a financial restructure, total overhaul and as I undrstand it when Marcus was presented with the opportunity, he insisted only if his friend and trusted partner NC was at the helm would he do invest - given that NC could earn a huge amount more in is native industry, I really dont see how some make all this fuss over it - whilst we have a strategy and solid foundations are being built for the futur,we are already seeing some success, then as far as I am concerned we shoudl be happy and get on with it. If we have cause for concern in results on the pitch, then quite rightly we should all be asking more questions, but for some fans to have been on NCs case sinse day 1 is just an illustration of either envy, political ideals or wind up IMHO..... Its because we were not charging ENOGH for services and products before MLand NC arrived and our expenditure was greater than income that we ended up in admin - now we welcome teh additioanl investmenta nd expenditure, but dont all feel happy paying for it - we need as a fan base to decide what we want I guess. BUt teh idea of success on a budget or expecting ML to pay for it all, is naive at best, and personnally, there is something a lot more satisfying if our success ends up being bought and paid for by the fanbase. Mike's Flag tribute is a perfect example - it means so much more because the vast majority was paid for by fans -saame goes if we get promotion... for me anyway. If we get there, it will be because we have credible, ethical and shrewd direction from NC, at times challenging to our beliefs, at times difficult, but overall, our success will taste sweeter because we wanted it and were prepared to pay for it - and NC will have been worth every penny!

WTF.... this is feckin sad. I have absolutely no problem with fans being critical of the management when things are up sheidt creek, because something is obviously going wrong, but what teh feck is this attitude thatsome fans are constantly looking for ammunition to slag the chairman and CEO when things are going right?... Jeez... envious of a big wedge is what i suggest it is... We each make our own judgements on whethere we believe what we pay for is value for money and its our choice... this constant barage of crap about 'price of this, or price of that' moan moan moan whinge, FFS, there are 1000s of things I cant afford - and you have to make a choice - if you dont believe you get value from teh club or Cortese, dont buy it, dont go - and if enough folk agree the club will have to drop prices based on simple supply and demand economics - if you want to see the club succeed it has to be paid for... yet some dont seem prepared for that. If you want football to be like 50 years ago, go and watch Totton, they could do with yor cash, and you can take the same bus home as the players... if you want saints to be the best they can be then you need to except the price of that success - your choice - but FFS, make your minds up - either get behind the club, stop the whinging or stop supporting and go shopping with the missus.

This - v good summary - Turkish is right with respect to the situation, which is a sad one IMHO, but we are under no obligation to sell at below our evaluation, something that Ox would have agreed to when signing his contract, (which suddenly means feck all...) Employment law being as it is, means the FA or UEFA can do nothing to 'restrict' transfers of young players - (unlike enforcing a max foreign contingent in tehir competitions - something that they seemed to forget they could do, probably to keep the big clubs happy... ) We just need to accept that football is no longer about teh real fans of the vast majority of clubs, but geared towards the majority of armchair'siupporters' of the 'big' clubs....

FFS... Options: 1. Like, can afford - BUY 2. Like, can't afford - DONT BUY, thats life sadly 3. Dont like, Can afford - BUY for someone else 4. Dont like, cant afford - NO FECKIN' PROBLEM IS THERE

To the point above, the advantage of handing in a transfer request means teh player would not get his contract paid out from the transfer fee... which he sis showing he doesnot deserve anyway. I also think his Dad has been pushing for this for financial circles - yes 'ask anyone in football and they would say he is stupid to STAY' - well I know what you mean, but since when is the 'Anyone in football tag' one that equates to intelligence and whats right? Tends to be linked to greed and the short cut to success approach that sadly undermines our culture... 'academy as a source of revenue' - yes there is truth in this, Ajax have been doing it for years, but they tend to flirt with the the UEFA comps enough, to be attractive enough for teh best playesr to at least stay a while and give the fans some success. I think that happy balance is a realistic ambition - be good enough so that we hold one to tehse players until they are 22-23 and get some success as a result, knowing that that success puts them in the spotlight and off they go... I think of the Bayer Leverkusen example - champions league final with a young Ballack and several others - most of whom ended up at Bayern Munich the following season. I dont think anyone is naive enough to suggest we will be ale to keep such talents for their entire careers, but that happy medium should be an aim. To be honest, I find it sad more than anything. That a lad barely 17 and just starting his pro career is already sen as nothing more than a commodity be his advisors and has obviously had his heard turned to want the riches now rather than continuing to develop and improve and give back some success - the rewards will come for him if he realises his talent, so never sure what all the impatience is about - can only be money, and that is the crap aspect of teh modern game.

No one is arguing that opportunity is a good thing for players and that like all of us, we all want to be recognised and rewarded for our talents - so I have no problem with players wanting to move on when opportunity comes knocking.... but its with young players that have just played one season and are beginning their careers wanting that NOW, when they still have a huge amount to learn, yet want the short cuts to success - made possible by the demand for home grown talent exceeding the supply and over inflating the value (UEFA 8 home grown in 24 man squad rule)... Its this attitude of 'I want it now' rather than working hard, head down, and helping the club that nutured and developed you and GAVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY achieve some success. Its all very well saying we will have a ton of cash, but that is useless if we cant get a similar replacement.. just weakens the side... YES it happens to all outside the top 4, but does that make it right? Does that mean that its OK to have that attitude? I dont think so, sorry. All the 'injury' guff is bolox. A player can get injured at ANY club, and insurance will cover things that are really bad... its was the same with Walcott and Bale - their eventual leaving was inevitable, but they both could have contributed more for a couple of seasons to the club that gave them their chance - this is only a naive opinion, because teh culture in footbal has made it such... but the principle is one that is based on integrity and patience - the rewards for these talents will always come, but wanting it NOW gives teh perception of greed and short cuts, however it is dressed up. Those quotes are a 'come and get me' and its sad that young players have this attitude, probably not helped by his 'advisors' who smell the £££ is such early deals.

All comes down to whwther someone offers a deal that Cortese accepts... simple as... up front cash, Possibly with sell on... Dont expect loyalty of common sense from players, their parents or agents - its ALWAYS about the money - all that talk about 'development with some of the best players' is ****** in sport, so as I say its always about short cuts to bling and heaps of cash. Its the saddest thing about football and why its so easy to get disillusioned with the whole thing. Team sport used to be about the TEAM, with a real desire to be successful as possible with your team mates, not jump ship at teh first opportunity - typical of what is wrong with our 'want it now' culture.... feckin sad, but feck all anyone can do about it.

Uhm... sorry, not sure convinced by 'forever a saint' text... more classy to just have his name, we know what it means, and that's all that matters - and agree with the the NO HALO thing... but just one opinion so counts for nowt if there is agreement on teh text.

er that shoudl show:

Easily the best by a mile - simple effective, and captures his joy and he scarf - seriously no need for words of any kind just get the picture righthttp://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6318/markusliebherr2.jpg

uhm... to keep this football related... in a loose sense http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/oddballs/865966-german-u-20-womens-team-pose-for-playboy-ahead-of-world-cup-finals

Better to differentiate between Nazis and German soldiers...maybe? Bravery is not exclusive to any one side. Fair enough he did his bit and shoudl be respected for it, but so did about 2 million others all told, who never had the life of luxury he had... so not really sure what marks him out as anything special... apart form an accident of Birth?

... as an aside, I see the football league have EXPELLED Rushden and Diamonds from the Conference for financial reasons... I would hazzard a guess they are skint, but do they owe anyone £120 mil? - Seems a tad harsh, given the Football league's attitude recently - I think I get it now; If you have a BIG debt of a squillion pounds, you must be a big club and deserve being treated will sympathy, if you are a small club owing a few quid, no one gives a **** about so **** em? Or am I missing something?

No Band - gets annoying in a millisecond - and as for that ****e England band... no wonder we ain't won anything since 66 with a band obsessed/stuck in with 1945..... embarrassing

No Band - gets annoying in a millisecond - and as for that ****e England band... no wonder we ain't won anything since 66 with a band obsessed/stuck in with 1945..... embarrassing

Sorry dont agree with this - this is always pushed by thos only interested in spinning the move - agents and the like, media with an interest etc.... All players have insurance and you can bet that players such as Oxo will have had a pretty valuation increase recently - if not, then his dad is not 'looking after the boy' - He is just as likely to have a bad tackle at any club - makes no difference whether at saints or with six months salary at Arsenal.... If his insurance valuation is too low, then its down to his advisors to ensure the club have a good value in his contract... but to say the 'career ending tackle' is a reason to justify a move is agent speak, nothing more.

The ref for today's England U21 international at SMS was Clement Turpin - great great great great great grandson of notorious highwayman D i c k - or maybe not

As Delldays says - the question should be if you think £22 a game is too much. Of course if you at a 72% increase it stings when viewed in isolation, but is £22 too expensive for NPC football in 2011/2012, when for many ST holders it was £20 per game in the first CCC season so in effect its about a 10% increase over the last 5 years... with the knowledge that we have a board /regime in place who we now will use that revenue to drive the ambitious plans? Dont get me wrong, I appreciate that in comparison to last year it has impact across the board, and that in general footie is way too expensive in England generally, but relatively to what we have paid in the CCC in the past + the need for revnues to support the plan, in my mind its seems fair?

Seems to me that the issue is the percentage increase some are facing.... but the percentage increase is only so high because teh last couple of season teh ST price in these categories was rediculously low - which we could afford based on L1 player contracts. We are now in teh championship and no doubt these contracts will have clauses that see automatic wage increases - which we have to pay for IF we want to see quality players (and retain our better ones) that will give us a chance of progressing. When assessing teh value, its wrong IMHO to compare to last season, where some STs were stupidly cheap - You have to consider what would be a fair price for watching a home game in the NPC £15? £20? If you can get an ST at 60 that costs you £16 per game, surely you can see that is relatively cheap still, even if a '70%' increase over last year... FFS, I will say it again, it shoudl be about waht VALUE you place on watching saints, not teh elague we are in or who the opposition is - IF you want sainst to a) run within our means, b) afford players who will give us a chance of promotion. The problem is we have been out the prem so long that many seem to have forgooten what we used to have to pay... and if we did get promoted again £35 per game would be fairly cheap versu most clubs - over priced YES of course when you can see Bayern Munich for 12 Euros, but the financial model in the English game means we have two choices... fans pay to ensure we remain solvent and yet can still have better players, or we have cheap tickets and cheap players and stay in L1... But it does annoy me that those who have had a few really cheap years, now think £16 a game is too much for championshiop football - especially as my renewal when relegated to the championsship was £480 (£20.86) a game... and that 5 years ago, when VAT was cheaper! Had I rebewed the same seat now it would be cheaper... and its that you need to compare it to, not last year's bargain prices...

FFS... look at the prices.... LESS than 6 years ago.... when we sold out and had 25000 ST holders. Are we saying that, Saints fans are only prepared to pay more when watching over paid prem prima donnas... from other clubs? what kind of supporters are we if we are not prepared to see the club invest - and remenber we are paying LESS now, yet you misersable ***** whinge about this because? the opoosition is not so strong? We are not in the Prem? Wee dont get to see t**** like Rooney? There were plenty of folk ywho could not afford to get an ST even if it was £300, that is sadly life. Same as because of where I choose to live a single game will cost me close to £300 - so luck if I can get down to more than one - that is life... same as those not currently over 60 will not get pensions until they are 70... all about making your choices on what luxuries you want to spend your hard earned/saved on.... yet too many on here seem to think we can have success for gratis, or expect the Liebherr estate to pay for everything... perdsonally, I am glad that teh club is not owned by an owner who is just buying success - but its something we all contribute to. All those going on about major percentage increases should compare what they were paying 5 or 6 years ago and look at the difference - and its cheaper. NOT against teh stupid cheap price of the last couple of years ... No one seemed to whinge 5 o 6 because we got to see all those ponces from OTHER prem club clubs, despite Saints being ****e and getting relegated.... see what I am getting at! Now saints are on the up, but because we might only get the odd game against West Ham or Leeds or Pompey... blah blah, whinge whinge.... and

..did everyone moan about the 30% reduction previously though.....

Pricing is always going tio be difficult issue - but those that have compared prices with other clubs are in some respect mising the point - expecially the Fullham case - they get 40mil + revenue from sky so have more flexibilty in setting their price. We need the revenue, and I can safely say with 1005 certainty that teh club will have thought long and hard, looking at all aspects of pricing, teh impact on exiosting and new ST holders etc. Those who assume teh club dont give a monkeys about fans, are way off base. Those that think we are being 'badly treated' are way off base. The club has a very difficult balancing act to follow - we entre a new division which requires a new budget - especially given teh demands of fans, new costs associated with each match, the opposition and police and stewarding costs as a result of visits from certain clubs etc - cost of stewarding increased away fans, and potential higher gates all have to factored into the budget - higher attendence = more costs, so its not as simple as saying drop prices to the filll the ground... if it were taht simple they would! The gate income is the biggest contributer to gross revenue outside the prem, so if a club is serious about attracting and keeping decent squad to make a challenge, we need to balance the costs against anticipated revenue. The thing is you need to step back from you own personal situation, and look at it dispassionately and ask does it represent value - yes we all know football is over priced, but we can thank the wage demands of players for that, not club greed, but if on the one hand we wnat to despise those down the road for cheating their way to success, and remain on the moral high ground by living within our means, BUT still demand success, it has (as many have pointed out) to be paid for. I dont quite get the need to justify the price based on what divison we are in. The price needs to be justified against the club's success and ambition it shows. Football is entertainment for sure, but as we have said countles times, it should NOT be about who we are playing or the quality on display (our own or opposition), but about what we are trying to build and achieve... we seem to have become so obsessed with expecting owners to pay for everything and 'invest' yet we need to be prepared to do this to if we want a seat at teh top table... afterall how many have said a club IS its fans, a moral/emotional ownership etc... if thats is true , and OUR investment is seeing results, then not sure we have much to moan about right now. (yes its easy for me to say - I gave up my ST when I moved to Scotland - had it for 10 years and if I average it out its probably around £500 a season - so over 10 years of following saints reagradless of the division, I think its been worth it and not much seems to have changed - sorry but I dont give a flying feck about what division we are/were/will be in when it comes to pricing)

We often dont agree UP , but in this I am 100% with you - top post. Thanks for clarifying this.