Matthew Le God

"It matter not" Well yes, if they were just the words of a deluded fool on a messageboard spouting them. But when they are the words of the chairman of the club who has a rich backer and we have already seen them match words with actions and investment into the club, they carry a lot more substance.

Then why is the chairman mentioning it as part of Markus' and his vision/plans for the club? He could quite easily say it won't happen in his tenure at Saints. Yet despite this, in BBC and fans dinner questioning he talks about stadium development and area around stadium development.

Well... - if they had the will to stop the development and didn't have the power = doesn't matter - if they had the power to stop the development and didn't have the will to do so = doesn't matter Either way it doesn't matter, as shown by the development going ahead as planned and Cortese saying "nothing has changed".

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here? No-one in this thread is speaking from a position of any real knowledge. I however have taken a stance towards the views of the professional businessman. He may well be wrong, along with some of his equivalents at other clubs but at least they have more evidence and sports business nous than any of us.

And if the family had the power and will to stop it, why didn't they?

The majority of vocal posters in this thread disagree with me. There is a difference! In any case, the majority isn't always right. Not saying that I am 100% right either, before you start with that line of attack.

The training ground plans were resubmitted months after his death at three times the cost of the original plan.

Not at all, a number of people on this thread have shown a similar(ish) view to mine. It just happens that Kraken, DellDays and you are the ones debating me.

Well none of us really know the Liebherr's true plans for the club. If they really do have the resources to back the club to challenge at the top of the Premier League then yes, it should be developed asap. If that isn't the case, then no. So far, the investment in the academy and training ground suggests that these aren't hollow ambitions and they really do have the resources to put their money where their mouth is.

- 30k+ attendances for four consecutive years is good evidence. - Many, many games between 2001 and 2005 selling out long in advance of the fixture is good evidence. - Cortese having access to the ticketing database and research done by the club that we don't have access to provides him with evidence to make the statement at the fan dinner about crowds of 45k.

I already have.

Of the later point? Cortese mentioned discussions with the council about developments in the BBC interview last year and also at the fans dinner.

Saints could in theory "do a Norwich" and be in the Premier League for 2012/13, so it is unlikely. Depends how long promotion takes. Also the club already has evidence of sustained 30k+ crowds over a four year period within the last decade, they don't need to wait to see if that level of support comes back. Look at what Wolves are doing, one stand at a time, already started construction this summer and would have happened regardless of relegation last season.

How do you know what stage they are currently at with stadium plans and that it isn't already quite advanced? Cortese has stated they have been in talks with the council already.

Why should it? It is a long process and Liebherr/Cortese have only been at the club two years, both of which were in League One. The chairman has on numerous occasions mentioned this is the plan. They have already begun construction of a training ground that wouldn't look out of place at a Champions League club. Why do that to settle for League One, Championship, bottom half of Premier League, middle of Premier League? They could have done nothing to Staplewood or made much smaller improvements to the standard of middle range Premier League clubs. They choose not to, which suggests they have very big plans and the resources to carry them out.

The owners turing the investment into equity. Investment in infrastructure is exempt from UEFA's new rules.

Five professional sports clubs should in theory know a lot more than you or I. Yes, they may be wrong, but I think they are all in a position of having a lot more information on the matter than any of us.

Hence the extra 15k on the stadium size.

Everton 26k season ticket holders - want to move to a 50k stadium Tottenham 25k season ticket holders - want to move to a 60k stadium West Ham 26k season ticket holders - are moving to a 60k stadium Wolves 20k season ticket holders - are building a 37k stadium (possibly upto 50k) 23k season ticket holders for Saints between 2001 and 2005 to move to a 45k stadium doesn't look too out of place now does it?

Why have you ignored all of my points that counter yours? 23k season tickets is a lot in any case. I don't know why you think it isn't. 23k seaosn tickets is... - more than the total averages (including away fans) of 3 Premier League teams in 2010/11 - within 4k of the total averages (including away fans) of a further 6 Premier League teams in 2010/11 That is half the top flight last season!

Alex was on a coach with the rest of the squad though to Tranmere on the day The Mirror claimed he was at Arsenal's training ground.

That is exactly the point, many fans aren't that attached to the club in the same way the hardcore fans are. They turn up when the times are good, desert them when times are bad. This is the same for every club. What is impressive though is that Saints had a lot more fans turn up during those times of points deductions and going into admin than many other clubs in the similar circumstances. The "sold out" sign on the electric board by the ticket office was a regular sight at St Mary's between 2001 and 2005. Often a week or two before the match. At that point people stopped trying to buy tickets because there were none. You can't sell more than 32k in a 32k seater stadium (often that figure was lower due to segregation).

No, what you did was show that the least attractive 25% didn't sell out. However the remaining 75% of fixtures in the Premier League are a lot more attractive. The top 25% of that, being extremely attractive and the number of tickets you could sell for those would more than make up for the lower figures of the least attractive games. For example, just say Saints St Mary's was 45k capacity sold 45k for a game vs Man Utd and 28k for a game vs Wigan. That averages out at roughly 37k. Compare that to how it would be currently. Saints sell 32k for Man Utd and 28k for Wigan. That averages out at a 30k. As I've said on numerous occasions now, this is nonsense. Games in the Premier LEague often sold out long in advance of matchday and many were left unable to get a ticket. I don't see how you can compare the process of expanding a stadium by thousands on its capacity with a training ground upgrade. The stadium is a far more complex issue and has many more issues surrounding it as regard to planning applications. Staplewood although it will be bigger will see little impact on the surrounding area as all it will be is a larger two storey bulding in place of a one storey building in an already fenced off area.

Again you aren't grasping the concept of a glory supporter. Saints in League One averaged circa 22k for both seasons. For some games over the last two seasons it was as low as 16k/17k. Yet on the day they knew promotion was going to happen the glory supporters flooded back and it was a sell out long in advance of matchday and many fans were left unable to get in. Have you forgotten the numerous fans that were posting on this forum upset they didn't have tickets for the Walsall game because it sold out? The Premier League will grab the attention of these glory supporters from day one. As it has shown to have done in the past for Saints, and at numerous other clubs. People that rarely went to a League One game would be willing to buy a Premier League season ticket. The same happened in reverse as Saints fell through the leagues.

As you keep ignoring it, can you address each of these please... 1) Are you privy to the same information Cortese has in regard to the ticketing database over the last 10+ years at Saints? i.e. do you know how quickly many of the games sold out in the Premier League, how many unique customers there are on the database in the last decade, how many people were turned away because the game sold out etc etc This information isn't in the public domain, and provides evidence that you claim there isn't. 2) Many games at St Mary's between 2001 and 2005 sold out a week or two before the matchday. Why do you think this means the club couldn't have sold more? You can't sell more than 32k tickets in a stadium that holds 32k. Saints maxed out on many occasions which is good evidence the stadium is too small.