Matthew Le God

The proposed Stoneham project in the late 1990's was going to be for a 25k seater stadium. Do you not agree they got the demand wrong for that given the averages average attendance of 30k+ at St Mary's? I already have answered that in post #51

What evidence do you think they need? Given the last time Saints were in the Premier League they can be pretty certain of a return to 30k+ averages in a 32k seater stadium. Plus this time it seems there will be more investment to make the club more competitive at a higher level than under Rupert Lowe between 2001 and 2005. Then it becomes something of a catch 22 situation about season ticket holder numbers. Last time in the Premier League I believe STH numbers were around the 22k mark, however a larger stadium allows for more flexible pricing strategies and offers, until you have the larger stadium you can't implement these.

So you think Oldham 49k, Bolton 69k, Burnley 54k, Port Vale 49k etc etc with their old records attendances all have larger fanbases than Southampton in 2011? Consider that their stadiums were much larger than the Dell ever was and these records are mostly 50 - 80 years ago when there was little else in the way of entertainment. Saints were restricted at the Dell and football in England has moved on since those days. There is a big difference between using Chelsea crowds in 1995 like I did (and you have taken out of context) and you using Sunderland crowds from 1933!

Most of them would be in the upper tier, so we can be segregated from them.

A nonsense argument! - Saints have never had a stadium with a capacity larger than 32k, so it isn't a fair comparison. Saints couldn't fit more than 32k in either the Dell or St Mary's. That doesn't mean they couldn't have if the stadiums were larger. - That Sunderland record was 78 years ago so not relevant really for today. Crowds were simply much larger all over the country in the late 20's, 30's,, 40's and 50's and Saints were restricted by the size of the Dell. Oldham Athletic for example have a record crowd of 47,671 at around the same time as the Sunderland one. Does that mean Oldham in 2011 have a much larger fanbase than Southampton?

Well do you not agree it would be foolish to think Saints coming 20th in the Premier League and averaging 30, 610, that season would not attract significantly larger numbers if they were fighting it out towards the top of the league? The average whilst in a relegation campaign of over 30k is evidence in itself that at 32k the stadium is too small. As for your other questions... How many fans were getting turned away when we were in the Premier League? You are right I don't know, nor do you. But the club would know, so Cortese knows and he is the one that has decided a stadium of 44k - 50k is feasible. I doubt he takes such decisions lightly. Also, many wouldn't have tried to buy tickets once the sold out banner went up. Plus a larger stadium allows for more flexible ticketing promotions, free tickets to schools, family deals etc etc all of which would boost the crowds. How many games were selling out "well in advance"? How long is "well in advance"? As someone else mentioned, a game against Chelsea sold out in 6 hours. I remember games in the Premier League that sold out one or two weeks before the day of the game. Once that happens people stop trying to get tickets because they would know none are available.

Even in the Premier League 2004/05 relegation year Saints averaged over 30k. Only 10 current Premier League teams managed that last season. Imagine the interest if the club was actually any good in the Premier League!? Those four years and St Mary's in the Premier League consisted of 3 mid table finishes and one 20th place finish. All of which averaged over 30k in a 32k stadium. Any hint of success will see a surge in interest amongst the fanbase to see some of the mere 19 home league games per season. Plus, see my comments above regarding Sunderland. They went from 10k season ticket holders (with no waiting list) to a 49k stadium.

I have never said 50k for every game. But if the club really did challenge towards the top of the Premier League I don't see why 50k for some of the big fixtures wouldn't be possible. Teams like Man City, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea etc are restricted by their current stadiums, they could all sell a lot more tickets than 50k. So it wouldn't make Saints 4th. What evidence do you want exactly? You keep harping on about season ticket waiting lists when for example Sunderland had only 10k season ticket holders in their last season at a 22k Roker Park, they had no waiting list at Roker and in the years building up to moving didn't get close to averaging near the capacity, they then moved to a 49k seater stadium.

Why have you not answered my question... "So when Saints were selling 31k+ against teams like Charlton in the Premier League and 31k against Man Utd in the Premier League you think both matches attracted the same level of interest?"

I didn't say they had kept to it. Just that it is meant to be an average across the squad, not a limit on individual wage packets.

So when Saints were selling 31k+ against teams like Charlton in the Premier League and 31k+ against Man Utd in the Premier League you think both matches attracted exactly the same level of interest? Had St Mary's been bigger, both attendances would have been larger, the Man Utd one considerably so. I've tried and failed to explain this to you a number of times. When have I ever said Saints were bigger than Liverpool? Liverpool sell out a 45k stadium every game, that doesn't mean their potential support is 45k. So if Saints were to get 46k for a game that doesn't mean they have a bigger fanbase, just that Liverpool are restricted. Look at it this way, when Saints were at the Dell sold 15k against Man Utd, and Pompey in the 2nd tier sold 20k for a game, does that mean Pompey's fanbase is bigger than Saints? No, it is just Saints were restricted by the Dell, as Liverpool are by Anfield.

It isn't a £10k wage cap. It is a £10k average wage for first team players. Yes, they are in the same league as Saints under 18's.

Well Saints were turning people away last time they were in the Premier League at St Mary's. Between 2001 and 2005 the club always averaged 30k+ in all four seasons and a high number of games sold out long in advance of the fixture. That was as a mid table team for three years, and coming bottom in the last season. If the team was competing towards the top of the league then the demand would be even higher than it was then. Do you honestly think that when Saints were selling out against Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool etc long in advance of the day of the game that no-one else wanted a ticket? This is irrelevant. Liverpool actually sell out there 45k stadium each week pretty much. If they had a bigger stadium they would sell even more.

At least give the free demo a try before dismissing the game entirely. Is the ability to add remove countries/leagues not a game changing addition for FM12? That has been in development for a few years as it is very complicated. There are plenty of others of great new features that you will see if you play the demo. As for Steam, you only need the internet to activate it once, after that you can put it in offline mode and still play it.

What about the 140,000 people living on the Isle of Wight?

That is completely irrelevant to how Saints will do in 2011/12.

25 league goals from 10 games (7 more than any other team in the league), suggests we don't.

Can Skates count?

I think a graph to illustrate the gulf in class is required.

- 4th place and a Champions League spot would set the club up in terms of reputation to attract players and the money needed to buy them in the future in order to win FA Cups and further high league finishes. - A FA Cup win on its own doesn't, see Pompey.

The under 18's continued their good start to the season with a 3-2 win vs Chelsea today. They have also beaten Man Utd 4-2 this season and remain unbeaten.

If all goes well, the demo will be out next weekend.

For those that like long career games, this is a game changing feature (quite literally), has been in development for a few years and FM12 is where it will see the light of day. Miles Jacobson's blog today...