hypochondriac

Supporters of the term like to pretend it means something it does not to try to make it sound like people who oppose the term are suggesting that violence or criminal acts committed against an individual because they are a Muslim are not a thing. That's clearly not the case.

You can't and it's why postal voting is so open to abuse. It should be polling stations only IMO unless there are exceptional circumstances and tightly controlled so that how you vote is secret. That wouldn't solve the problem but it would reduce it. Obviously Labour will never look to bring that in unless the Greens usurp them entirely and it coercion no longer benefits them.

The issue is the misapplication of the word and how it is used in practice. Like I said, if you want to strictly define it to mean hatred of a Muslim because they are a Muslim then I'm not sure there would be too much disagreement. That isn't how it is defined though as @trousers has pointed out. It's used to shut down and prevent legitimate criticism of Islam and the objectionable actions of some Muslims.

If Islamophobia means a hatred of a person simply because they are a Muslim then that would be more understandable. That isn't what I have been led to believe from many people talking about the definition though.

According to Labour it's "Muslimness or perceived Muslimness." I genuinely don't know what that means.

Very difficult to prove. If it gets significantly worse it's only going to fuel the rise of parties like Reform.

TBF it is still technically democracy, I'd say it's a perversion of the electoral process and hasn't really been seen in this country before. I'm not sure what the answer is but it's potentially a big and growing problem.

The point is do people think it is a good or bad thing that a community could have patriarchs that instruct large groups of people who to vote for. You can argue the degree that it happens but it's unarguable that it does happen and that it is likely to get worse and become more of a thing.

Many people have an aversion to many aspects of Islam. It doesn't make them 'islamophobic'

Yes because there's examples of block voting, family voting and religious communities caring more about issues in other countries and religious issues than things relevant to the UK. You brought up Islamophobia again. Next time you want to mention it feel free to refer back to my above post in order to satisfy you with my answer.

Why do you have to be such a bellend all the time? Nothing you've said makes me uncomfortable I'm very open about my beliefs. You're well aware of my view on Islamophobia, I'm not sure why you had to bring it up put of the blue in this thread because I never mentioned it. There are plenty of reasonable and rational reasons to not be a fan of Islam. That's not a phobia. In my opinion Islamophobia is a nonsense word with as yet no official definition that is used by people with an agenda to try to silence legitimate criticism of Islam. This differs from anti Muslim hate crimes and violence which is abhorrent and should be condemned. The above has little to no relevance to this discussion.

Amen to that. Wouldn't be a surprise if this reverts to Labour again at that point when they have a new leader.

I agree with this tweet. Will be interesting to see if the traditional green voter will now change.

In what way is this result worse for Farage than Starmer?

Could we possibly try to have a sensible discussion without the silliness? I haven't gone out of my way to insult or misrepresented you I was attempting a reasonable discussion.

It's pretty difficult when the traditional parties are loathed so much and have let the country down to the degree that no one wants them in power. I can see why even non Muslim traditional Labour voters would consider the Greens just to give them something different on the left. There aren't many other places to turn which is a pretty sad state of affairs.

TBF I said Labour would keep the seat so I was clearly wrong.

One among many other policies. Are you suggesting that sectarianism did not play a part and that family voting wasn't an issue? Plenty of more moderate voices are claiming the opposite

Who was the politician that brought up some airport in Pakistan or wherever as if that was a concern for a UK politician? More of that would be terrible tbh.

It tells us that in one constituency with very specific demographics, the swing from hardcore Labour to Reform is not as strong as some predicted now there is a more hard left wing choice coupled with concerning accusations of sectarian and family voting which obviously won't affect the majority of other constituencies. If this pattern holds up in other constituencies then it will be more notable but England is traditionally socially conservative do I can't see it myself. Did the reform vote out perform the traditional right wing vote for this constituency does anyone know?

Indeed they hsould and probably would have won. Much more of a popular person than Starmer and would probably make a better PM.

Not sure why you are talking about nonsense like Islamophobia. I don't think any political party in this country should he engaging in sectarian politics. I would prefer a Labour victory over that sort of rubbish and that's before you mention the legalisation of drugs and sex work etc.

I really don't think one bye election in a seat that has voted left wing for over 100 years with a large Muslim population and accusation of family voting and sectarian politics tells us much about the politics of the rest of the country to be honest. Commentators will be desperate to extrapolate though whoever had won. I think it does show how even traditional Labour voters feel betrayed and loathe the prime minister though.

I think the local elections in may will tell us a lot more about where we are. The temptation is to extrapolate what happened here to have a wider significance.

I'm not sure we can read anything much into the results of one bye election. I would say it's a depressing glimpse intoba future where a party can have electoral success in traditionally left wing parts of the country by appealing to sectarian concerns. I'd have rather Labour won it to be honest.