hypochondriac

Thanks. So the definition that Streeting is talking about is "expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness." What is that? The recent MP who stood up in Parliament wanted desecration of the Qaran to be made illegal. Would that be Islamophobic? I can see why that would meet the definition of perceived Muslimness. The other reason it matters is because the charge of stirring up religious hatred is currently lower in this country than stirring up racial hatred since to secure a prosecution currently you have to show that what someone did was likely to stir up religious hatred and that they intended to do so. It's a very clear distinction that matters so yes types of discrimination and how they are categorised matters quite a bit.

It's not pointless at all. Not least it's not pointless because many organisations try to silence legitimate cricism of Islam with the label of islamophobia. It's not a form of racism and it lessens the impact of that term by trying to say it is. Racism is an incredibly serious and damaging charge and if it can be defined as whatever you like then you're potentially leaving someone open to life ruining accusations that are unfounded. I certainly won't be using Wikipedia as an authority but I'd be interested in reading the Streeting article and how he makes that case if you have a link. I also didn't agree that "islamophobia is unpleasant" since I don't know what definition you're using for that.

I didn't say that abusing someone solely because of their religion is not unpleasant, I'm disputing the claim that something can be racist without involving an ethnicity or race. In what way is Muslim racialized? I could convert tomorrow. If someone then abused me because I'm a Muslim it doesn't make them racist clearly. Unpleasant, bigoted and an arsehole maybe but definitions of words are important. Judaism is more of a grey area since Jewish is both a religion and an ethnicity. I would argue that abusing a recent convert to Judaism meets no sensible definition of racism as unpleasant as that would obviously be.

If that all happens it surpasses my expectations!

So not religion then.

Where? Like I said you have no interest in a sensible discussion which is why you're just trolling.

How can something that doesn't involve a race or ethnicity be defined as racist? It's nothing to do with me it's a definition. I predict you won't answer sensibly you'll just rattle on about how islamophobic I am.

"I'm opposed to Christianity." Racist?

I don't know a lot about the national front or the EDL unlike you but if they are targeting someone because of their race then of course I have a problem with them, any person would do. And no you've misquoted me. The argument I have had with my wifes uncle is that someone should have the RIGHT to be offensive baiut Muhammed not that they should do. We should never have blasphemy laws I this country. Learn to read.

I don't agree with the definition and gave clear examples as to why it doesn't work which you are unable to refute so you just go off on some trolling expedition which as I said is sad and unfortunate.

I agree that the sooner the recommendations from the reviews are implemented, the sooner views about Tommy Robinson can be ignored. The fact they still haven't been adopted in full is another embarrassment on the last government and this one needs to implement it as soon as possible.

Thanks @Gloucester Saint for your considered reply. Unfortunately you get people like the post above that make it difficult to have conversations because they aren't interested in saying anything meaningful. Troll-like behaviour like this is unfortunate.

Right but factually it's not necessarily racism is it which I would define as prejudice or discrimination of an individual or group based on their membership of an ethnic or racial group. I can't agree with you that attacking someone solely because they have a different faith to you- even though it shouldn't happen- is racist. As objectionable as discrimination based solely on someone's religion would be, I don't follow the logic that says that that would be racism in all cases because race is not always a motive behind the attack (and any ethnicity can be part of a religion.) I think Scientology is an evil organisation and I would support types of attacks on that group in the hope that it was forced to disband but supporting this wouldn't make me a racist since race has nothing to do with it. The Lee Rigby attack was clearly disgusting but was it motivated by Lee's skin colour and race? Or was it motivated by the attacker's extremist religious beliefs or what the British army represented to him? Southport I accept appears to have had racist elements, where people saw misinformation online and then used their own prejudice and racism to target individuals with the wrong skin colour. Clearly if you're searching for someone with a particular skin colour and then attacking them then that is very obviously motivated by racism. The primary reason I bring it up is because some people are quick to label someone as something like Islamophobic if they believe that Islam is a bunch of fairy stories that do more harm than good and would prefer if its effects are lessened as much as possible in the UK and that many of the values of a proportion of its followers are incompatible with the UK. I'd also defend the right of someone to depict the prophet Muhhamed in offensive situations even if it's not something I would do myself and I believe that if it is the case that Muhammed had child brides then even allowing for social norms of the time that was not correct and is not something that should be emulated today.

Thank Christ for that. Even if it doesn't work at least he's identified the problem immediately.

Hi Gloucester Saint. I appreciate you engaging with opposing views without resorting to insults. In that same spirit, can you explain to me how believing in extremist Islam is racist? Because that makes no sense to me. Similarly, how are you defining islamophobia? Because as I understand it, Islam is a religion comprised of a set of beliefs and ideas and not a race. You could discriminate against someone because they are a Muslim but that Muslim could be of any nationality. If I hated Christianity and so I hurled insults at a Christian or refused to hire a Christian for a job because they wrre Christian racism wouldn't come into it.

Interesting. Do you have some examples of Elon Musk showing prejudice towards someone based on their race or ethnicity? While you're at it maybe show an example from Tommy Robinson. I assume you have one for him as you seem to know a lot about him.

What's the definition of Islamophobe in this context?

Hold up a copy of Tommy Robinson in the other hand to increase the pleasure.

Is Trump far right?

I'm not sure you have.

Interesting first link there. "There are women who don't want to go shopping because there are 20 men in long Islamic dress shouting anti-British stuff and calling for a jihad and stirring up religious and racial hatred. Those are our town centres, and we want them back," Robinson, then still hiding his identity, told the BBC in 2009. "We want them back, not from the Muslims, but from the jihadist extremists that are operating in the Muslim communities. And the Muslim communities need to deal with their extremists." "I'm not far-right…I'm just opposed to Islam. I believe it's backward and it's fascist," he said in 2016. So according to that he's claiming not to be far right but opposed to Islam and he opposes calls for Jihad and women feeling intimidated in public. " He also pushed the common conspiracy theory that British police were refusing to prosecute sexual assault of children by Asian men because they were afraid of being seen as racist" Is that a conspiracy theory? I'm pretty sure it's an accepted fact at this point that police failed to act when they should for fear of being labelled as racist. Like I said, doesn't seem like a nice bloke but those actual quotes from him don't sound extremist even if you disagree.

Sounds like you have quite an interest in this Tommy Robinson character. You could almost say the go to person on the forum for Tommy Robinson knowledge.

Yes I've seen the links to some violence, no doubt he's been rather violent and made some idiotic statements that have landed him in jail. When you say 'clear link' between him and the Finsbury Park mosque attacker, what does that mean? He certainly doesn't seem like a particularly nice person but I was just wondering if there were concrete quotes or unambiguously racist statements anywhere? Don't worry if not, like I said I don't know a lot about him (or care to know much to be honest.)

I think I've mentioned previously I don't know an awful lot about Tommy Robinson but does someone have a link of what he's actually done? Was it nick Griffin levels of blatant racism or something else? I know recently he's been nicked for repeating false claims in contempt of court which seems very thick but not necessarily openly racist.

There's nothing particularly unique about the likes of MOTD and Wimbledon that couldn't be recreated on a non public service broadcaster. Just mandate that it has to be free to air if that's the issue. Agree I'd probably be a lot happier with that option. Bin off bbc pidgin too: https://www.bbc.com/pidgin