CHAPEL END CHARLIE

The 'Queen Elizabeth' or CVF class carrier was right from day one always designed to be capable of accepting the catapults and arrestor wires that CTOAL aircraft such as the F18 (or F35C) would entail . Some extra delay and expense would undoubtedly be incurred , but you have to set that against the money (reportedly £10bn) saved in buying cheaper F18's Hornets compared to the F-35 Lightning . I think we have enough problems on our plate right now to spend too much time worring about what we'll do in 20 years time - the future will have to take care of itself . On the wider point I'm just trying to live in the real world here (realpolitik if you like) with an economy that is very nearly bankrupt & an electorate that cares little and knows even less about the armed forces in all honesty . I'd love to see us buy the planned total of 150 F35's for both the RAF and the RN - but whatever , you , me & Delldays think that just ain't going to happen I'm afraid . The ever increasing unit price of the F-35 represents a clear and present danger to the entire carrier programme - if it comes down to it I'd rather sacrifice the F-35 than the see the RN lose the new fleet carriers altogether . Seeking to always have 'the best' has very often been the enemy of having the 'good enough' in British defence procurement history . It seems to me that even getting the 'good enough' out of this defence review would be a minor triumph for any of the services .

That's a perfectly fair point , but I did say it was my "initial opinion" .

Those who both fly and maintain the latest generation F-18E/F consider it to be a absolutely first class aircraft by all accounts , and it clearly would be a 'Quantum Leap' ahead of the handful of Harriers the FAA now has - when the RAF lets them borrow them that is . You are perfectly correct the original F/A-18 is indeed an aging design - but the F-18E/F Super Hornet is virtually a new aircraft with little more than a superficial resemblance to its predecessor . This aircraft is in both production and service with the USN (who are hardly in the habit of accepting second rate equipment) and it certainly has a long service life ahead of it - up to around 2035 I understand . So I don't know where your claim that it will need replacing in 10 years time comes from . I'm more than happy to accept that the F-18 is less advanced in many ways than the F-35 , but with the F-35B looking almost unaffordable at this time (in decent numbers anyway) it must surely be better to have a carrier (or two preferably) at sea with a airgroup of 36 F-18's aboard rather than see the whole CVF programme canceled or sold for the want of affordable aircraft to put on them . A aircraft carrier with no aircraft not only serves no purpose , it would be impossible to justify in the current climate . Who knows if we can get the carriers into service with F-18's in this decade it may be possible to supplement the Hornets with F-35C's in the future - or possibly better still , one of the British or US stealth UCAV designs that are now emerging .

If you really must continue to seek a conversation with me (as you are aware I've asked you to leave me alone - a request you have refused to respect) then I suppose I will have to employ my right of reply - although I've never found talking with you to be a particularly worthwhile experience in all honesty . As for your points , such as they are : 1 - I don't really care where they come from . 2 - I don't care much what their past 'rep' is either . 3 - I call it as I see it . From what I saw yesterday Danny Butterfield looked a competent , experienced , but hardly outstanding Right Back - rather like Otsemobor or Lloyd James for that matter . If you were watching him and thought you identified some kind of special player in front of you then all I can say is good for you . My initial opinion is what I said it is (I may well change my mind in future) but I must say that seemed the opinion of those around me as well .

This really is a very good post , and as close to the heart of the matter as we're likely to get on here anytime soon .

We let one average right back go (Jon Otsemobor) and another player who could cover that position (Lloyd James) and replaced them yesterday with a older player of roughly the same ability level (Danny Butterfield) . One can only hope that Frazier Richardson (when fit) lives up to his reputation or that position may still be a problem area . Time will tell I suppose .

That's a question there is no answer to at the moment - it may be that our player budget has been reached already or quite possibly we've repeated the time honoured error of underestimating the opposition - we may have been listening to our own propaganda too much . Whatever the reason if the club are going to judge the manager on results then its only fair they give him a squad that not only has a quality first XI (when they are all fit) but also the strength in depth needed to archive the target the club demand . I'll echo what Churchill said to Roosevelt "Give us the tools and we'll do the job" . As it happens I hope and believe that reinforcements are indeed on their way - sooner rather than later would be nice .

What a privilege it is to be present as history is being rewritten ! Take my word for it that Plenty on here told me that although a new player or two would be nice our squad was wonderful and we'd be fine anyway ....... the sound of that particular bird coming home to roost could be heard all over St Marys at the final whistle yesterday . Your 3 player targets are 'spot on' by the way .

Reducing the RAF transport force (C-130J) makes no sense at all - these are modern aircraft and surely one of the principle lessons of recent conflicts is that we need all the transport capacity we can get - part exchanging them for a few more C-17's may be a plan however . As for the Tornado's , yes we probably can do without so many fast jets - these old crates date back to the 1980's and although there have been (expensively) modernized the Typhoon can do much the same job at less operating cost . It's looking a good bet that HMS Ocean (worn out already I hear) will go and other reductions in our amphibious force will indeed happen . I personally question the entire concept of the opposed amphibious landing anyway . With a mere handful of exceptions (like the Falklands obviously) no navy has carried out any such activity since the tail end of WWII - we're not going to be retaking the Falklands anytime soon or landing a Royal Marine Brigade to fight the Russians in Norway for that matter - so lets stop pretending we will . Cutting a heavy armoured brigade with it's AS90 artillery & Challenger II MBT's out of our army in Germany (why do we still have forces in Germany?) is really a 'no brainer' as they say - light airmobile forces are clearly the future . So in summary , if (big if) the RN gets out of this review with both new carriers still in the programme and with it's escort and SSN force largely intact then those responsible will have made the best of a very bad job I suppose , unfortunately I fear it's going to be more painful than that .

Indeed . Although he was by no means our worst player today Puncheon does tend to make square runs across the opposition's back line rather than trying to penetrate it . I thought he also wasted an splendid shooting opportunity in the second half when he chose to pass rather than shoot when on the very edge of the box .

You may not care what my opinion is but I'm moderately interested in yours - an insight into the caliber ('Small-bore' I guess) of the person you are debating an issue with is always of interest , oh and 23-28 is a pretty fair working description of 'mid twenties' I'd have thought . With the unstoppable spread of the 'Undisclosed fee' in the game your edict on no further discussions or speculation on transfer fees means this whole area of debate is now out of bounds . I wonder why you think you are entitled to lay down the law to others . What did Puncheon cost us ? - it must be less than Ricky Lambert (£1m) but rather more than £250k I suppose . So I reckon £500k is as good as estimate as any . If you don't care for my 'guesstimating' then you will just have to suffer it because I'm quite likely to do it again in future . And finally , everyone on here likes to put their view across - I'm no different than everyone else in that respect (you included) and I take care never confuse my opinion with fact . But if you were to say I don't suffer fools gladly on the other hand ..........

It seems to me that Dickson is at a similar level (in terms of ability) to Lee Holmes - but rather more mobile of course . The more senior left sided players we sign the harder it becomes to give Joseph Mills the proper run of games this youngster will need to in order to progress . We are in danger of losing this promising young player simply because we've no room left for him - and that I feel would be a great shame .

I seem to be nearly alone in detecting a slight hint of irony in the prof's list of so-called positives !

1 Radhi Jaidi . This player started the match at walking pace and never got quicker than a gentle trot . Yet despite that he somehow contrived to be virtually knackered after 50 minutes . In all honesty there were fitter people than him watching this game from the stands . With regret I must say it looks like that injury he received at the tail end of last season has cost him (& us) dearly . Trust me on this , put him up against a really quick forward we'd be in deep trouble . 2 Kelvin Davis . I've been watching Kelvin for years & I'm a big fan of his , but seldom (if ever) have I seen his kicking as poor as it was today . Are we playing with the World Cup ball ? 3 Lee Barnard . This player has a reputation of being a prolific lower league goal scorer (indeed the record proves it) but sometimes you look at him and wonder how he did it . It's a team game for sure , but successful forwards do need to be in the vicinity of the opposition goal on occasion . 4 Adam Lallana . Over the years I've grown to accept that many on here can't really tell the difference between a average player and proper talent - if you are ever in doubt think back on the difference Adam made today as soon as he came on . 5 Our Squad . I take it that only the most bone-headed on here will still be arguing tonight that our squad is not only weaker that the squad that finished last season , but without quality impact players such as Antonio or Papa Waigo it's too limited to make achieving promotion this season anything like the certainty some thought . 6 Ricky Lambert . Can we play without him ..........

1 - It has always been my view that (as a general rule) a player in his mid twenties is indeed in the prime of his career . Antonio is only 20 . 2 - I did include all the necessary caveats re the transfer fees - pay more attention in future . 3 - Two players who play in same the same position can (and very often are) completely different in style and ability . If you want to critise me for being "too aggressive" than it might be a good idea not to go around calling people "myopic" .

We live in hope ........... and die in despair . I just don't accept for one moment that it is at all 'negative' to question what you see going on should the occasion arise . It's those who choose to never challenge 'the powers that be' or the official version of events that worry me more frankly , indeed this forum could do with a few more questioning voices at times . If I've criticized the club over this Illingworth business then that is because I'm pro free speech - not anti Cortese . My philosophy of supporting this great club is akin to the relationship between a loving parent and their child almost - and like any good parent I must speak the truth when I see my 'child' going off the rails so to speak - however unpopular that message may be .

You are so wrong that you can't even see 'right' from where you are - you'd need Radar . Michail Antonio is the type of player who can really change the ebb & flow of a football game with his pace and ability - this is a surprisingly rare quality . While I admire Jason Puncheon you can't really described him in the same way . Puncheon's transfer fee was 'undisclosed' but I'd be very surprised if it was much more than the £500k Reading are reportedly asking for Antonio - ergo the game (not me) already rates a youngster with hardly any starts under his belt as the equal (at least) of a player in his prime . If we could get Antonio for £500k then we'd be getting a bargain .

I welcome Bart signing a new contract - but I can't go this far . Bart has the innate ability to be a first class goalkeeper for sure , and yes he may well become our number one in the fullness of time . But for now at least Kelvin Davis is at least as capable (I'd argue he's a tad better) and in my opinion he has a stronger sense of self confidence and is almost certainly the more reliable keeper of the pair . And that is why Kelvin is (and is likely to remain) our first choice keeper .

Good to see Adam Lallana joining in .

Michail Antonio is going places for sure - I can only hope he can drag us along with him . I seriously doubt that £500k will be enough , indeed If I were a Reading Fan I'd want to see a pretty substantial 'sell-on' clause included in the contract whatever the eventual transfer fee is .

Reading this thread carefully almost everyone who has contributed has conceded that the squad needs to be strengthened to some degree at least - that is even the view of senior players such as Ricky Lambert and (I strongly suspect) our manager as well . But despite what is clearly a near consensus of opinion from all concerned (if the squad needs strengthening then ego it must be too weak) if you actually dare to state this obvious truth in a clear and unambiguous manner you are guaranteed to receive all kinds of flak from people who in reality share almost the same viewpoint . If you agree that the squad needs reinforcing then please in the future do try not to jump down the throat of the next person who actually says exactly that ! Some of us on this forum have over the years grown into the habit of calling a spade a spade , others clearly don't appreciated that style of plain speaking . But remember the really important thing is what you say - not how you say it .

I'm starting to warm to the idea of the F18E/F Super Hornet on our new carriers . The reported saving compared to the F35B (£10bn) may mean we can actually afford to give these valuable ships the proper air-group they deserve . I accept that the F18 is cheaper for a reason but a carrier with only half a dozen F35's aboard is very little use to anybody frankly - better surely to accept a decent number of less advanced (but still very capable) F18's now and get the RN securely back into the fleet carrier business . There are plenty of rumours circulating that one of the two QE Class carriers may be cancelled or sold in the forthcoming SDSR - if this proposal saves both ships and allows us to afford aircraft for them as well then I'm all for it . The fly in the ointment is that equiping the carriers with the new technology electric powered catapults and arrestor wires needed to operate the CTOAL F18 may well eat up much of the saving made by ditching the F35B in the first place ! Nothing is ever easy is it ?

I found the wonderful performance Debra Winger & Tony Hopkins gave in 'Shadowlands' to be a profoundly moving experience . I can't watch 'Schindlers List' without welling up either . I even cried like a little baby at a cheap TV movie called 'I think my name is Steven' years ago . What a big girls blouse I really am !

I wonder how many times Leeds Utd were top of that list before they actually got out of this division .

Just a few points in reply to the above . 1 - I said the squad is "significantly weaker" that the squad that finished last season because that is my view based on a honest appraisal (without the benefit of red & white spectacles) of the squad . Many on here don't agree with me - I think they're wrong . 2 - I've been a member of this forum since 2007 - during all of that time I have never once named a specific player I want to see this great club sign . The reasons for this is that I do not (and have never claimed) to possess an encyclopedic knowledge of the 1000's of lower league players who could well 'do a good job' for us . I freely admit I'm the type of fan who primarily concentrates on our players during a match - not the opposition . More to the point I believe it is the proper role of the manager and his scouting network to identify players , you can rest assured they neither want nor need my (or your) input . I know the type of players I want to see sign for us (a pacey forward & a quality midfielder to replace Paul Wotton ...etc) but I'll leave it to the professionals to find them . If you don't like that answer then you will just have to live with the disappointment . 3 - I'm glad you mentioned Simon Gillett . 12 months ago this forum democratically voted for him to be our sponsored player - because of the magnificent bloody effort this young lad had put in for the club under what were very differcult circumstances . Now you can hardly find anybody who will say a good word about him . Worst than that even decent players such as Simon Gillett & Wayne Thomas (without whom we would not have gotten to Wembley I would remind you) are now apparently just so much "deadwood" there to be discarded & forgotten . Yes Alan Pardew doesn't rate him so he's gone - that is part and parcel of any footballers life - but why insult players who have never done anything less than their very best for this club ? It's perfectly true some of the 15 players who have left this summer would probably not have played very much for the 1st team this coming season . But a squad is much more than its first XI , you just can't say a squad that has lost 15 and only gained 3 to replace them is in any meaningful sense 'stronger' than it was before - it just won't do .