egg

It's different messages, but why should the FA follow the government position. Even the BBC have (to a fashion) have refused to follow orders and call Hamas terrorists. The FA position, particularly on the armbands, is respectfully neutral in terms of the impact of what's happened/happening on both sides. The arch decision, I suspect, is based on the same principles.

This post crossed with yours. Hopefully we can all keep on topic, and he civil. I'll do my best.

Your full on with the petty insults and digs on this thread Whelk. How's about trying to address the actual issues and comments, rather than the posters. Just a thought, sunshine.

I mean no disrespect Duck, but there's a naivety to this. Netanyahu has essentially said that he wants to flatten Gaza. He's doing that. He now wants the top half of Gaza to move south. That allows that half of the job to be finished. What do you think he'll do after that, leave the Palestinians to live in peace in the south? Of course he won't, he'll need the Palestinians out of there so he can finish the job there (or clear out Hamas as he'll sell it). Where do those people then go? The north is destroyed so it won't be there. It can only be Sinai. I may be wrong, but if the Palestinians move to south Gaza I'd be staggered if we don't see a max exodus of Palestinians to Sinai simply as there is nowhere else for them. They'll have next to nothing left to go back to, and even if they did, it'll be undoubtedly be under Israeli control. Let's see how this pans out, but this isn't about crushing Hamas. Sure, Hamas brought a response upon itself and the Palestinians, but what's happening and will happen is beyond the pale.

You're just making stuff up now. Behave. I'm not sure how someone who is appalled by the Hamas actions is "justifying terrorism". To quote your words to Benji above, you're better than that. Probably. I'm not pro the Israeli governments actions. Absolutely not. That does not make me pro Hamas.

This isn't an isis discussion. This is about Israel/Palestine. For a self proclaimed clever bloke, your inability to look at the whole picture is surprising. Unless of course you prefer not to. PS. no need to dictate what people say.

Nobody has said that Hamas have done right. Everyone who's posted on here has joined in the condemnation. But, anyone who cannot see that what Israel are doing in Gaza is wrong, and cannot appreciate that their motives are to destroy Gaza and punish it's people, needs to give their head a fucking massive wobble.

I like they have recognised that there's two sides in this, have taken a neutral stance. Never listened to LBC. I'm guessing it's kind of like GB news but in the radio, in which case I'll give it a wide berth.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67085498 Sensible decision on both fronts.

Do you genuinely believe that Israel are attacking Gaza in an attempt to eradicate Hamas? Netanyahu said that they would turn Gaza into an island of rubble. It's an opportunity to destroy the land in Netanyahu's own words. Supposing you're correct though, do you believe that Hamas as a movement will disappear after this Israeli action? I think it's pretty obvious that it'll be the opposite.

Palestine did not behead babies. That was Hamas. Is bombing families in their homes really any better? Feels like a different type of evil to me.

Seems that she's made a unilateral decision that the Palestinian flag is now the Hamas flag. Tad daft of her.

Do you think that flattening Gaza, destroying mosques, homes, businesses, a university, etc, killing and maiming thousands of innocent civilians is a proportional response? Do you think it'll get the hostages back? Is depriving 2.3m people of fuel, energy and water until 150 hostages are returned a reasonable action? If the latter was the Israeli tactic, why flatten the country as well? As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the action in Gaza has nothing to do with eradication of Hamas - this will just breed Hamas support , and it's ideology. It's about levelling Gaza, and Netanyahu is delivering on his promise to turn Gaza into a "deserted island of rubble". It's a wholly disproportionate response.

I think that's pretty obvious. Both sides need their own state, to be left alone by the other, and to respect the others right to existence.

Indeed. There's no defence of Israel in the Gaza attacks. Is purely about revenge and demolition. Biden have them a hall pass to do wtf they like thou so they'll carry on. Two wrongs don't make a right etc.

The BBC didn't report. Sky did but misquoted Netanyahu. We get plenty of talk about Hamas not recognising Israel, but nothing about Israel wanting to obliterate Gaza despite them doing it in front of the world. The discussion needs balance, but the comments from some on here highlight that some believe this to be a one side at fault issue, presumably because that's what the media tell them.

That all ignores that Israel does not want Palestine to be a thing. It is Israel who have built settlements ignoring the UN's views on it. They don't allow Arabs to build land on the bit of land that they have left. They destroy the houses that are built. They grab land. They allow settlers to attack the Arabs. The Arabs have had it terribly for years. That should be undeniable. The Israeli behaviour has been disgraceful, and it's understandable that Arabs resist and fight their corner. What isn't understandable or acceptable is what Hamas have done. I can understand why Israel want Hamas gone but bombing the shit out of Gaza and wrecking the homes and lives of innocent civilians won't achieve anything positive. Indeed, the Gaza assault is about wiping it off the map - Netanyahu said the other day that he intends to turn it into a "deserted island of rubble". That's the place, not Hamas. As you say, there needs to be dialogue but I cannot accept your assessment that it's only the Arabs who need to alter their mindset. Their has to be change and movement on both sides.

7/7 was 7/7. That was different to this. I find it bewildering that anyone cannot acknowledge that the behaviour of the Israeli government towards Palestinians - settlements, supporting settler attacks, destruction of houses, denial of housing permits, shooting of civilians, etc - is wrong. It's odd that anyone cannot acknowledge that it's possible to criticise the behaviour of the Israeli government whilst being disgusted with the appalling actions of Hamas. What's interesting is some of the language used on this thread. People who make criticism both ways are being hit with the "equivalence" stick, seemingly in an attempt to suppress a view that both sides have done wrong. That's an extension of an issue that's always been there when discussing the Israel/Palestine issue - anti Zionist views have wrongly been deemed anti semitic and been shot down. Just criticism doesn't need a set of scales to assess the balance of blame, but even so, who's been most at fault doesn't detract from the fault of the other side. Both sides have been a disgrace, and Israel are not so naive as to think that they can destroy Hamas. They want to destroy as much of Gaza and it's infrastructure as they can. We all know that the Israeli response will only increase the size of the vicious circle. It's a sorry carry on. Whether a 2 state solution will now be possible I'm not sure, but the sad thing is that we kind of had one with Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem.

My recognising that both sides have behaved appallingly (albeit in different ways) is not me suggesting equivalence, or sympathy to the actions of Hamas - poor form of you to insinuate that. I've made it clear that I consider their actions appalling, but you know that.

Goal

What an odd comment. I agree that the Hamas attacks were an act of sheer evil. I've never suggested otherwise. What I have said is that you are wrong to suggest that there is only one bad side in this sorry situation. That's a statement of fact. What it isn't is a suggestion from me that Hamas behaviour is somehow justified, or that I'm suggesting that there is equivalence. It's possible to be disgusted with Hamas and recognise that Israel also behave appallingly.

The point made by whelk is that there's only one bad side in this. There isn't.

Imo any right minded person should accept that the Israeli government have acted disgracefully. Particularly as the UN have said so many times. Whilst that doesn't condone in any way what Hamas have done, it's ridiculous to say that only Hamas are the had guys. Both sides are a disgrace. I'll leave it there, but I'm happy that my view is the proper one.

What's embarrassing is intelligent people only seeing what they want to see. Israel have been a disgrace for years, surely you agree with that. Hamas have been a disgrace for years, and have taken it to a new and appalling level. I'll carry on looking at the full picture. I couldn't give a monkeys what your view is.

Both sides are. Don't let the hideous acts of Hamas kid you that the behaviour of the Israeli government, historically and currently, is acceptable.