egg

Israel is referred to as the Jewish State, but not all Israelis are Jews, and not all Jews are Israeli. It's easy to see how there can be easy, non anti semitic misunderstanding.

I think it's clear from the tone and content of all of sog's posts on the subject that his issue is with Israel. I can't fathom why the penny hasn't dropped now that the semantics make a big difference, but hopefully after Badger's post it'll sink in.

Cook

Calling out naive comments isn't inflammatory. It's a forum. Don't shoot it down. Suggesting that someone has been radicalised, and calling people cunts, pricks, anti semitic, and the other nonsense we've seen on this thread is inflammatory though. I'll leave it here hypo. I'm of the firm view that you are blinkered to the reality, depth and nuances of this situation, and seem unable to look at anything pre 7/10. It's clear what you think about my position.

Explain how the Hamas actions of 7/10 justify the IDF, in an area not controlled by Hamas, killing or maiming kids days later (and before) with live ammunition for throwing stones? Where's the defence of Israel? It's wanton killing.

Not agreeing with a couple of people on a forum doesn't make me wrong Hypo. It makes us disagree.

How does any ideology based on hate get eliminated by mass killing and destruction? And yes, I maintain that it's naive to believe that you can smash an ideology, and a movement, in this way. I don't have the solution, but it isn't what we're seeing.

What was the motivation of the IDF in these situations? If not death of Palestinians, what was it? Shooting kids with live bullets in response to throwing stones is wilfully murderous on any assessment. https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-as-protesters-throwing-stones-are-shot-by-israeli-snipers-this-is-part-of-normal-life-for-the-west-bank-12987221

Bless. I just don't support murderous regimes, whether Israeli or Arab Whelk. Give it a try.

Apologies, I misread Israel want no Jews dead as Israel want no Palestinians dead. I CBA to go through the rest as we're plainly poles apart. However you cut it, there needs to be collective effort, discussion and change to have even a modicum of hope for that. However, the Israeli response is only going to make things worse.

Wow. And all that from an Israeli state trying not to kill civilians, or damage civilian infrastructure. As the UN said, the rules of war have to be followed whatever the provocation.

Anyone suggesting that there's no desire for Israeli's to kill Palestinians is living in some kind of fantasy world. I know it distorts your bizarre perception Hypo, but it's been happening for years, and is happening today.

Jeez. Where to start. You have said above that Hamas want all Jews to die. You then support that by referencing a holy book. You then reference one missile in Iran that couldn't take out all the Jews. Your statement is just daft. You also said above that no Jews want Palestinians to die. Have you overlooked the many killings of Palestinians by the IDF and settler's? You also overlook that Israel don't want a Palestinian state. You overlook that they grab land and settle. I'm not sure why you feel that Hamas don't need to negotiate. Both sides do - you can't reach a bilateral agreement unilaterally. Your question is based on your flawed perception, and conflate Jews and Israelis. Israel's government kills Palestinians daily that it does not have to. That's a fact. It's killing people in Gaza in the thousands that it doesn't have to. You can't overlook that and naively sat that nobody on the Israeli side wants Palestinians dead.

Ready

I'm glad you highlighted this. There is a perception of the Hamas ideology being slung around by people who refuse to acknowledge that Israel are at fault in any way. It seems to be nonsense created to justify a position.

Both sides in this dispute have to negotiate with an enemy who kill their people. There is no prospect of achieving anything if people essentially shrug their shoulders and say what's the fucking point, or steadfastly maintain that just one side needs to alter their behaviour.

I think you're a tad blinkered Hypo.

I suspect there's more a few on here who lurched to the conclusion that the Palestinians had done it. I'm sure I know why.

What's the relevance to Jews being in Palestine? That's not part of the discussion. Do Israel want Palestine to exist? Have Hamas killed more Jews, than Israel have Arabs? Hamas and the Israeli regime are both murderous bastard's. Any suggestion that Arabs in Israel are treated equally is horribly wide of reality. Generally speaking, you are very selective in your focus. You completely overlook settlements, and every other legitimate Palestinian complaint.

Certainly leaning, or inconclusive ? I'm with inconclusive.

This line is probably the most pertinent: "Several experts we spoke to were not willing to put forward a view on what happened". That tells me that it's inconclusive, and that credible experts aren't willing to stick their head out.

You're not focusing on the whole picture. Hamas as an organisation does not want Israel to exist. The Israeli government, representing the country, does not want a Palestine to exist. Your focus on what the Arab people decided in the 1940's, and what Hamas did on 7/10, but completely ignoring the 75 years in between and the events of the last 12 days, is a very strange approach.

Only if a) you focus on the event since 7/10, and b) have a complete lack of regard for proportionality and international law

How does that help now? What's the solution now? Several eyes for 1 eye? Destroying Gaza?

Where does all this equivalence talk come from? Where there is equivalence: There are two sides at fault. Two sides who don't want the other to exist. Two sides who want their own state. Two sides killing the people of the other. Where there is not equivalence: One side doing a hell of a lot more killing and causing a hell of a lot more destruction. Anyone who believes that Israel do not want to see all Palestinians off of what they see as Israeli land is misguided and naive. The assault on Gaza ain't about getting rid of Hamas. It's about getting rid of the Palestinians. And Hamas are not Palestinians.