up and away

And then I give you Newcastle, massive fanatical 50k+ support, massive investment and they end up with their arses hanging out the back of their pants. There is only one real option for sustainable success, someone who is prepared to bankroll heavy losses with the distinct possibility it will all go pear shaped come the end of the season. We are investing heavily in the youth structure again, but you really need to hold onto that player for about 6-8 years for them to be of value to elevating the team higher before selling. Something I really doubt is practical in this day and age.

Not so. Like anything else, the value can be a figure for accountancy purposes, but more realistically it is the sum that somebody is prepared to pay for it. Is your assertion that we are being run at a hefty loss based on facts, or is it purely conjecture on your part? If factual, then no doubt you will happily furnish us with the evidence. And then again, define "hefty". One man's "hefty" is another man's "meagre" As an investment, there is no way I can see this as being profitable. Because as an investment you have to compare what Liebherr would be making on all that money in comparison to all his other investments. That is a pretty easy one to sort out when you consider the billions he has already made in his area of expertise. Liebherr has shelled out a very good whack already. The purchase price and the £M's just to get that purchase price. Players fees, wages and the infrastructure will be offset by income but you only have to look at the accounts of Charlton and Norwich to give you a good indication. You have two values for the assets represented by Saints. The minimal value if you broke everything down and sold everything off individually. That would be a big loss as the major assets have restricted planning permission upon their uses. Then you have the value of Saints as a going concern and that value is solely dictated by what any nutter is prepared to pay for it. Saints really has no value apart from the asset stripped version until someone is prepared to cough up. Reading have been trying to find a buyer for ages, a great debt free set up with a modern stadium and no takers. No one is going into football to make money from it, more as a passion than an investment. For someone like Liebherr this passion would be peanuts and the only way it makes sense. There is only one viable buyer of football clubs, someone who has made all their money elsewhere and are prepared to accept loses in the pursuit of pleasure. You only have to look at every example in the Premier, where Arsenal can only be deemed closest to break even and successful, solely because of Wenger on the training ground and in the transfer market.

I would have expected this player to have been on the list before everyone went on holiday. £450k is a lot of money for this player and I really doubt anyone else from this league would have forked out their seasons budget on this one, for those rare few that have a budget. There will be offers in for other players, with us having to wait on the player/club to come to a decision.

What ever Crouch's intentions, his input was disastrous with the exception it allowed Markus to come through the door. Even then Crouch's misplaced generosity nearly messed that up completely. A total idiot, more driven by ego than what was actualy best for the club. Going from **** up to **** up so frequently it looked more by desire than accident.

Just because Fulham were daft enough to appoint Sanchez, should ward them off of lower league managers for some time to come.

Of course he has a point, but it is the balance and significance of his point of view to the total package which is totally out of kilter. For christ's sake, this is the guy who has picked us from oblivion and laid out a solid directive for us to be competing in the Premier. The inverse point of view would be to highlight what Mussolini and Hitler did for the trains and roads respectively, it is minor in comparison to everything else. Well he's got two bee's under his bonnet now, Cortese and the hardships imposed upon the modern football hooligan. Such a distinct lack of focus upon what really matters around us that the rants are difficult to take seriously. Whether the club has this wrong or right, will not be determined by season tickets alone, but by the overall income to the club. Most have conveniently forgotten all those empty promises from the billy bollix to renew their season tickets once Lowe had gone. Or to be fair, what they said was that they would not be buying another season ticket whilst Lowe was there, conveniently ommiting even Carlsberg owners would suffer the same fate.

My impression is that his focus for the job he has in hand dominates, sometimes to the extent of the pleasantries. I don't know the man or have heard any profound thoughts apart from those expressed to all. Have passed/saw about 4 times close up and although polite, had other things on his mind. He works very hard and expects similar from his staff, which is not going to be the best environment for glowing praise from those that work for him. I don't know of anyone who he confides with or even someone he lets slip the odd remark to. Nor do I know of anyone else within St Mary's who knows anything, extremely rare in comparison to all that have gone before. The only small snippets I know of have come second hand from his wife, such is the focus of the guy. I don't see any ego in the guy, he appears more focused on the job in hand than any personal elevation. We do get an outpouring now and again via the Solent interviews, which almost seems a reaction to having stored everything up for so long. Cortese has taken a chance coming to run Saints and it has basically took over his life in his efforts to make it a success. I hope he has time to relax a little and enjoy things along the way.

This is just natural when you are going after better players. Even when there is no or little differential in salary, the better player will naturally want to play in the best club, league that he thinks is within his reach. What would be concerning is if very good players are going to our direct competition, but that is not the case. We are just like hyenas around a carcass, waiting for the lions to have their fill. With our only realistic chances being when they have fed. We all know 100% that we will not hear anything official until a deal is done. We already have out targets and things are already under way, but you will not get movement until the club or the player makes a response.

This is very strange, but I don't buy into the problems Mandaric has with some managers. His comments on Pearson have been good and there looks no sign of him not rating Pearson prior. Mandaric has taken a big hit during this latest recession along with forthcoming court dates with HMRC and I would guess the answer lies more in that area than another. We won't get anything from Pearson, but something has definitely spooked him.

Cheers for the reply. My hunch was Coppell. I wonder how close the date of Coppell joining Bristol City (22nd April) was to the date that Cortese convinced himself to retain Pardew....? There is no one who knows what Cortese's actual intentions are, of that I am pretty sure. There have been indications with some of his enquiries, but no one can say the exact nature of what his ultimate intentions were or the reasons behind such. Just because he looks in a direction, is no real definitive guide he intends treading that direction. A few things I do know is that he keeps checking and going over things almost to the extent of being OCD. That's just his nature and the manner his nerves interact in these situations. Without doubt he could be a bit more fan friendly, but is totally engrossed in making Saints a success. My only fear for the guy is that Saints become a problem for his family, then we could have problems if Markus cannot find that trust elsewhere. When you look at the big picture, Cortese is an enormous plus on Saints side. Listing numerous petty points does not come close to what he adds to Saints.

Ther is no doubt Cortese could have done things more fan friendly, but imagine he must have given up on the fan involvemet after being exposed to the likes of SISA. Such a mighty list you have drawn up, which when you carefully consider what has been delivered to us is piddling.

The sentences by comparison are extremely harsh and the police should have kept the Pompey fans in St mary's for at least 45 minutes after full time, as we had to suffer at Fratton park. But the reason for these sentences are because of the past history of mass football violence and why the government insists upon it being eradicated early. When you have trouble on this scale it is virtually impossible for a police force to control the situation and we have clearly seen in the past horrific personal injuries and financial damage. Because football violence on this scale is so difficult to control, the authorities bring the full force of the law to bear to attempt to keep this to a minimum. This is how football violence was reduced to next to nothing previously. It's the same laws and penalties, just several have forgotten because it was so long ago. Now anyone who has not figured that out by now has to pay the price for not thinking more than their actions!

I cannot believe so many on here could not fathom out beforehand that penalties for football related violence, automatically suffers harsher penalties. We have been so trouble free relatively to how things used to be, that many have forgotten how bad things were and the reason government guidelines to judges in these cases are so draconian. So a lot of fans forgot this and never realised the penalties involved, well they do now along with any other considering something similar.

If the deal was so good we would have had a line of investors backed up to the end of the Avenue during administration. But all we got was a bunch of tyre kickers, Walter Mitty's and no brained idiots that had previously seen a Saints game. You take all the money Liebherr has spent, purchase price, purchase fees, investment in the people and infrastructure, salaries, transfer fees, then factor in what sort of return he can get on the international loan market with that sort of capital and you are no where near a sensible investment. The value of the club is only what someone is prepared to pay for it! Bearing in mind we are still in one of the worst economic climates ever, likey to get even worse. So after being on the market for so long without takers, why do you believe they are suddenly going to spring out of the woodwork now, giving over all this mythical profit to Liebherr? Even those rich fans we had like Gavyn Davies were not that blighted to see Saints as an investment. Liebherr has retired, he no longer sees the need to keep adding millions to his portfolio, he does not even get involved with running the smallest aspect of the club. The package for Cortese alone will run into millions and the money for players just to keep you in the Premier the first season could easily exceed £50M, that's just to tread water. You don't have to spend that sort of money and see if you can get lucky like others have done on less but you are taking a WBA route with little certainty, not that you have that great an amount with splashing out £50M.

If that's the case, you will have absolutely no problem in identifying all these clubs that have shown to be such a great investment and the huge profits returned. They just do not exist along with football being a sound investment vehicle. We have the perfect example just up the road with Madejski and Reading. A very prudent approach, sensible calculated financial input and has built the cub up from League 1. He can't even sell on that nigh on perfect set up and he can't afford to keep bank rolling the club. Common sense should tell you that when even a modern, well set up club are struggling; this is not a profitable arena. If Liebherr wanted to make more money he would have continued with his well formulated methods that have brought him billions, not wave bank notes over the bonfire. The only thing that can give a reward from owning a football club is the pleasure of watching the team progress. Something Liebherr is prepared to do within practical limitations.

This is absolutely laughable, just where exactly are you going to find the person who will be prepared to pay that amount for Saints? Additionally if this was a viable investment plan there would be so many others doing so and the leagues littered with these profitable examples, but there is a distinct absence of any such proof. If no one would come and take such a fan base and infrastructure from Mike Ashley for Newcastle at a knock down price, what chance have the others! Just look at Sunderland and the money pumped in there to just see them comfortably off the relegation zone, the facts don't back up football being a good investment. When you consider this as an investment for Liebherr you have to compare it against his other businesses and investment. So just adding up the basic sums gets you no where near what that money can earn if he just keeps doing what he was previously. Just to exist in the Premier league you need to commit most of your income to wages, otherwise you are not competitive. Just look at the majority of clubs and running at break even is a result, with only Arsenal standing out solely due to the exceptional strength of Wenger in the transfer market. Saints are more of a mode of enjoyment for Liebherr, not an investment. That does not mean he is prepared to throw money wildly in the direction of success, there has to be an acceptable loss he is prepared to accept for the pleasure returned. Even so we were the 4th highest spenders in all the UK leagues during the last January transfer window.

This all revolves around one point, the ability to sell the club at a profit. Now if you cannot debate that point, the rest of it is inconsequential. It's not difficult to put a value on the club, equally it's not difficult to see the possibility of a buyer and at what sort of value. Then you just have to look at the amount of investment you require to get to various elevations of a football club and there is no way you can see this turning in a profit. If you want a very good example of this look at Aston Villa, the cost of buying, the investment and what it would bring on the market today. The blip that saw football being attractive to the idiot investor is long gone with the examples strewn across the Premier, how Liebherr managed to get involved still boggles the mind, unless as a passion, rather than investment. If you don't want to include the crux of the scenario, all you are doing is opening up a contrived position to take cheap shots under the guise of debate.

This is never going to be an investment. It's still a hobby with the practical side of finance applied. Even then you have to look at the money already spent to see this is going to cost a real go to get into the premier. Then once you get there look at the money the likes of Aston Villa and Spurs have thrown in just for a chance of Champions League. Without someone like Liebherr we have virtually zero chance of aspiring to those great heights and as owners go, would any fan even think of swapping him?

I looked at the 30 odd English clubs on Zebra's site, then had to go to the actual clubs or fans forum to find anything out.

If you are going to look into this, do it properly and not come up with some half arsed look at bits you feel apply, totally ignoring those that do not.

After having a quick look at all those clubs with instalment plans, it is again not as straightforward as you would like to assume it is. Several of those instalment plans are over a period before the season actually starts. With our late requirement for payment covering most of those periods. Other instalment plans involve being accepted for a credit card. Something you can do yourself and get an even better deal for a season ticket. What looks like the majority of the remainder, require payments via direct debit. Zebra mainly seems to cover the desperate clubs out there. Looking at this from the clubs pov, we are not that desperate to go down the Zebra route and almost the other options can be accessed by individuals without the need of help from the club, cheaper to boot! Defaults are a big issue for some clubs, something that became apparent at a cursory glance and why the majority do not go down the Zebra route. On a side note regarding booking fees, all clubs have booking fees. Just some include them as a blanket charge on all ticket sales. Which means that others bear the expense of the single purchaser over the multiple purchaser. Very strange that something which is inherently fairer, actually gets depicted as totally unfair?

USING A COMPANY SUCH AS ZEBRA, BEARS AN INDIRECT COST TO ANY FOOTBALL CLUB You have part of the story, but far from a balanced view. When you look at the relationship between Zebra and the football club it is extremely one sided. In effect Zebra pay monthly for tickets at £15 a pop with no booking fee, just taking their set fee per month with absolutely no risk. The club has no advantage of all the money up front and the cost saving that is built into the season ticket, in effect selling individual tickets at season ticket discount. What happens when someone defaults upon the instalments for season tickets? Zebra will send the offending holder a standard letter, after that it's all down to the club if they want to take matters further. The actual return on those defaulters will be low and mainly pursued for deterrent purposes more than anything else. When you have an unsecured customer base with no assets, you really are on a hiding to nothing. Let alone the fact some may feel this is a valid method for not bothering to go any more, if they feel the product is not to their liking. I remember this being brought up at board level under Lowe when in the Premier and the volume of defaulters had a definite cost impact at that point. When I first heard of this, I was disappointed that the club had gone down this route. But after looking at the details of these instalment plans, I cannot understand why any right minded business would entertain such a limited and one sided deal.

Squeezing as much money out of the Saints fans as possible, you really have grabbed the thick stick with both hands. There is a administration cost to purchasing tickets. What Cortese has done is to put that cost back to the specific purchaser, not spread it onto other season ticket holders who are not responsible. The costs are born by those that create the administration required. If Cortese was trying to screw the maximum from fans, he would not be trying to make the cheapest tickets the best and easiest option. As far as Zebra are concerned, what's to stop them still offering season tickets to fans? Unless you have not factored in the safeguards and additional costs which they would expect the club to bear? You could mask all the booking fees very simply by just adding a fixed charge into the price of an individual ticket, but that would subsidise the individual purchaser from those that bought multiple tickets per transaction. What the club has done is the fairest method of applying costs to those that generate that cost, not subsidising them by others. It's more than possible the club have missed something here, but I am struggling to see what? If you cannot get a loan or finance from any other source with what is available on the open market, why would the club want to take on those? This has not come over very well, of that I am well aware, but when you look at all the detail it impossible not to see the fairness in each aspect.

Never mind Wilde, I can still remember those that fawned over Astride Gibbons. That one seems to have slipped to the back. I don't totally agree with what is happening at the present, but in the grand scheme of things as a supporter , it's a pimple on an elephants arse. For this hassle, just look what we are getting in return. Who would have dreamed to be in the position we are, after everything that happened. And what's the downside? A serious grip on reality is required!

Of course they are! They should just cut the st's even more and let the cherry pesters finance all the players, salaries, the fact we are not in the blue square and ad infinitum!