stthrobber

Well you can only assume that he won't help in any way. Would people castigate him any less if he did put any cash in? Answer no!, whatever he did it wouldn't be enough. If he didn't you can't really blame him can you? Had nothing torrents of abuse during the last few years (irrespective of whether it was deserved or not), the majority of fans didn't want him here and made that abundantly clear, so I don't think you can have it all ways. You all wanted him out of the club, he's gone, you got your wish and yet you still criticise him for not doing more.

What's wrong with them? They look great in our bedroom

But this thread isn't really about the blame game as such, it's about SOME of the people responsible for our current situation putting the begging bowl out. I appreciate that Crouch is one of the £1000 plus gang mention on the OS recently, so we don't know how much he has put in. I share GM's attitude to the begging bowl. I thought the best way to support the club was to buy a ticket for Charlton and spend a large amount of cash in the Megastore on merchandise that I didn't really want. It's not about being Luvvies any more, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond that.

Firstly I would have reopened the avenues of communication between club and fans/fans groups that disappeared when Lowe resigned last time. It's seems a tried and tested method in retail that if the product is not selling, then reduce the price and instigate a sale. I appreciate Lowe was between a rock and a hard place whereas during his last tenure, he was criticised for being too public, and on his return, he was quite the opposite. When you read the articles on the OS there was scant mention of our woes. I also appreciate that many fans wouldn't walk across the road to piddle on Lowe if he was on fire, but someone has to speak to the fans to get their views. It's just my opinion, but in not speaking to the fans, on their return, many felt cut adrift from the club and found alternatives to their Saturday routines. I did recently speak to someone from corporate sales and suggest that they reduce the price of corporate tickets, even suggesting they sell a two tier system because those of us that don't drink alcohol feel that £100 for the Mike Channon Suite is a very high price, whereas a former senior manager now at another Championship club was only too happy to do a deal to get the bums on seats when Saints were away. We paid £50 each for a 3 course meal with match ticket etc. I know that the response from a lot of fans to the question "what can we do for you" would be "get Lowe out" but to others like me, constructive suggestions as to how to improve gates would have been given. Likewise, I wouldn't be prepared to pay £2.50 for a pasty in the concourse because it would be less than half of that from a shop. I can't blame Lowe for the irresponsible "speculate to accumulate" manner with which Burley, Hone and Dulieu etc saddled our club with over priced players like Wayne Thomas on inflated wages and who hasn't made a contribution this season, but I can say that the Dutch experiment was too risky at its inception and when Lowe got together with Wilde, Pearson had no chance of staying on. This season could have been done differently with different results even if it has been driven by cost cutting.

You are probably right here. At this time we can still only sit and hope and dwell on why we are where we are. A win on Monday might help a bit

I know there are fans out there who stayed away because of Lowe, but again I also believe if they had reduced match ticket prices, then many fans would have attended. I would have gone much more often this season, but cost was the major factor. I also think it a more likely scenario that JP was told to play the kids whereas Wotte refused to do so, realising that without more experience in the team we were doomed anyway. Hence we suddenly started playing Euell again. I do agree with you about collective blame though, and you can trace that back many years.

Are you sure that the 10k or so fans that were missing this season were doing so purely because of Rupert Lowe? Could it not be that the club's pricing strategy was flawed, particularly when the cost of living was rising so spectacularly? Petrol over £1 per litre, huge rises in gas and electricity and yet they still asked £25 to watch the youth team. The Forest game in December showed that with a realistic match ticket price, people would go. It is unlikely we would be relegated this season if the right balance had been struck between youth and experience. You cannot expect a team made up from youth players to succeed when the common practice is for 1 or 2 youngsters to be blooded a couple of times in a season, not all of them at once like we had. It is unlikely we would have been relegated if at least 1 of our 20 goal a season strikers had not been loaned out, and if only it was Rasiak or Stern John and not Saganowski playing up front for us now. Loyalty is a 2 way thing, and football clubs are fast finding out that the fans are fed up with being overcharged, and in our case, being overcharged to watch kids play. Someone showed me a prog from a home game from 1976/77 season and I could have guessed the players in the team. 20 years from now I wouldn't remember barely anyone that has played for our team this season. Whatever the circumstances that caused Lowe to team up with Wilde to oust Leon Crouch, the last thing he should have done was create more upheaval and instability when we badly needed continuity. Many factors have come together to cause our current malaise and league position and Rupert Lowe has to take a fair proportion of blame himself.

This was similar to what happened at Villa when Sturrock was in charge. Bloody well organised. Last time I went to Wolves was when we beat them 4:1 and they had 1 bloody copper on the road bridge just behind the away end. 1 copper and a load of neanderthals who were kicking ten bells of cr@p out of anyone with a red and white shirt on. We were pointed vaguely in the direction of the coach park/bus station and our coach was stoned by local kids on the way out. Apparently the old bill weren't expecting any trouble that day and didn't have sufficient resources available :confused:

But the problem is that's all people want to do is blame. What's the point of that now? It no longer matters who is to blame, what matters is how the club moves forward again. We can't change the things that have gone wrong, the people that led us to where we are, are for the most part, history. Hopefully, next season they will ALL be history. Irrespective of what division we're in next season, the club has to be rebuilt virtually from scratch and all we have to do is get behind the club, assuming we still have one.

It could have been avoided if the "revolutionary" coaching set up hadn't been risked in the first place. What is even more about it was the fact that JP hadn't managed at a high level in the Dutch leagues, but was experienced at coaching young players, whilst Wotte had managed one or two clubs in the Dutch first division, yet JP was made head coach and Wotte the Academy director. Given the financial situation he inherited, I can understand Lowe's need to make cuts etc, but the coach situation was just too risky, and few people would be fooled by spinning the appointment of 2 foreign coaches with no experience in this country as a sort of BOGOF. The cheaper option despite quantity usually works out as the wrong one.

To be honest, I didn't hear a lot of what Leon or LM had to say because they were drowned out by the singing. I did hear LM banging on about it being "your club" and not about personalities which is fair enough, except that it's been nothing but about personalities including himself for the last few years. They've all been having a d1ck measuring competition whilst our club has been going down the pan. Unforgiveable imo. If what you say about the piccy in the boardroom is true, then what was he doing in there? He ain't on the board anymore, as far as I can tell, it's er, Dave Jones and the administrator :confused:

I do think the effort was there, it's just that the team was clueless, couldn't pass to each other, had no width, in fact whatever makes a team, we didn't have, but they did try. In the first half, Saggers was running around like a young gazelle, but to no particular purpose. Euell certainly worked hard, but when clear through on goal, he only had to get it on target to put us ahead. I did remember criticising JP when he was out of position during a Charlton attack, yet he was only gently sauntering back into position, but otherwise with no apparent game plan, it becomes difficult to turn effort into a team performance.

The effort was there, I think the occasion got the better of the players. Charlton, supposedly the worst team in the league, came to SMS and passed well, moved well and showed no signs that they are virtually relegated. Their midfield piddled all over ours. On the other hand we huffed and puffed, hoofed and hoofed, played head tennis but had no width or guile to give them enough problems. If that is the Dutch way, then they learned their football from Branfoot. Wotte seems to have no game plan and if we get taken over I sincerely hope he isn't in charge next season.

At this time any further display of animosity is pointless. On Saturday, fans should be doing nothing but singing their bloody hearts out to get behind the team to inspire them to get 3 valuable points as every point we get now could be vital either way. Whatever people's feelings are towards Lowe and Wilde, whatever the reasons for our current situation are, it just doesn't bleedin'g matter right now. We are where we are and our club's survival is of paramount importance and if there are any prospective buyers in the crowd tomorrow, they certainly won't be impressed by fan hostility. The inquests can come later, just get behind the team

I don't know if Brian Bennett is still involved with the Trust, but he struck me as a decent guy and probably a better choice to lead than Nick. I have no problems with Nick, but in everything I have read from them of late it seems that they are trying to get themselves in a position of influence over other fans and fans groups, ie the recent statement urging the club to offer an olive branch to Leon Crouch, then slipping in "a representative of the Saints Trust" when mentioning their suggestions for the board of the football club. The rejection of the Fan's Parliament in favour of the Trust just invokes my cynicism tbh

I think the club would be foolish not to involve as many fans as possible if this idea goes ahead. When Wilde took over he jumped into bed with the Trust and it caused a lot of resentment and many fans have now distanced themselves from the Trust. I think this is just Nick Illingsworth empire building tbh.

I voiced my concerns at the start of the season, though in all fairness, when JP arrived he was saying that the team would be made up with a mixture of youth and experience, but the reality was that experience went on loan and the team was almost entirely made up from youth. Completely and utterly the wrong strategy.

The bottom line for me is this: In recent seasons our academy produced Walcott and then a season or so later, Bale. Both were sold as their profiles were raised, but the point was they were single products of the academy of their respective years. This season, Lowe was expecting virtually the entire team to be made up from the academy and as we all know, we are lucky if 1 in 10 players from the academy ever actually make the grade at our level or above. Therefore I would say a hearty no in response to your question. He was way off the mark and it's only since Wotte appears to have brought back experience that our performances have improved. Academy players are not physically, nor mentally strong enought to play 46 games a season at our level and we all know it, but some people think they know better.

Yes, but sadly the common denominator is that both fans were hospitalised by Saints "fans"

I know that historically Cardiff City fans have had a poor reputation for trouble making but this would appear to be 2 fans from different clubs receiving very serious injuries as a result of playing Saints. A lot of my friends and colleagues are Bluebirds and one of them phoned me after the game to say we deserved our win and he was in a hotel with some other Bluebirds and Saints fans and no trouble at all. This is the way it should be. That people cannot go to a football match in this day and age and end up in hospital is a disgrace regardless of which club they support

Well it may be a gimmick Tris, but whilst your points about buttering up key supporters has a ring of truth, it all stopped the day he actually became chairman of the club. In his favour though, one of the complaints that is common about the club's off field activities is the lack of communication between fans and the club. If what I have read on the Echo website is true, then the Parliament will have reps from various other groups than just official supporters clubs. If there are attempts made to get fans and the club talking again then imo it can only be a good thing. It's one thing to dismiss it as a PR stunt and another to actually take part and try to make a difference. If it turns out to be nothing more than a PR stunt then people have lost nothing but their time and they can walk away, but if it can make a difference, then surely fans must take the opportunity? I have my reservations but I do think it's a good idea

I think the Trust failed because they were rushed into something by Hone and Oldknow that they were not happy with at the time. The Trust had a 5 year timetable to elect a fan on to the board, and Oldknow came along and pushed for it within months, well before the Trust was ready. They then held guns to the heads of other supporters groups to get them to affiliate which caused a lot of mistrust and bad feeling. They insisted the numbers from those groups would count towards the 15 percent of ST holders figure that was chosen to be able to elect the fan. 1650 in that particular year. That figure was achieved, Hone and Oldknow then shafted all the fans by alleging that it was against the law to have a fan on the board (or similar) and that effectively killed the Trusts main aim, and coupled with the fact that the Trust meekly accepted it and didn't campaign further meant that people just lost interest. Whether it was a deliberate policy of Hone's or not I don't know, but by insisting that the groups affiliate they caused rifts that probably can't be healed now. A lot of good people put a lot of hard work in to getting the Trust where it was, and I don't think too many of them are still on the Trust board

I don't think the Internet has ruined football, Sky money has done that. The associated media has blown football up into something far more important than it is, and the Internet just serves to assist with that. What I would say is that the anonymity afforded by email lists and message boards has allowed the culture of the cyber warrior to grow, where people who have never met bait each other, sometimes quite viciously over a football club.

But to be fair, on this particular thread, Duncan hasn't done anything Bern. 'Twas Jonah that lit the touch paper on this, and far from getting answers to his questions, all he has done apparently, is consolidate many people's opinions that Rupert Lowe is a bully on occasion. There is still a valid question in this, in that if MC felt intimidated, then what was said or done to cause this. If Duncan wasn't prepared to answer that question then he shouldn't have posted anything at all as there is a growing feeling amongst some fans that he has become a propaganda merchant for Crouch (not my view I should point out)

It's not a question of being a Lowe luvvie or anything else. Why do you have to result to petty insults to a reply that I thought to be fairly balanced? I find it pathetic that if you can't reply constructively to a point made that you trot out the old "lowe luvvie" crap. My reply, which I will put a tad more succinctly just for you, said that if there was something in the story then it should be out there for everyone to make up their own minds about. I'm sure that the conduct of the PLC chairman, is of interest. I made no judgement either way. However, having said that, you don't become a journalist by being a shrinking violet, and it is no secret that Mary Corbett does not like Lowe on any level and neither does Duncan, therefore I feel that if the comments were not to be backed up, then they should not have been made in the first place, for in my opinion it does the poster no favours.