Nineteen Canteen

Oh dear, that's a long w*nk hope Fan the Flames didn't post this on his smart phone whilst taking the dog for a walk.

Any news if the police are taking the matter further? They were planning on meet the FA and then we had the news that the game wasn't live and so the betting scam with the spread firms could not have occured. So where are we now? Are the police pursuing the issue? Did MLT just quote the wrong game by mistake? Did he deliberately invent the story to beef up book sales? Did he make up anymore stories and if so does the book need to be reclassified in the fiction section? Has MLT given a satisfactory explanation to the affair who do we expect some well rehearsed 'straight bat' response as per the answers he has given so far with regard to Pinnacle. Finally, do we know the validity of those 40 pages of well-wisher emails and can we name any other books about the greatest stars living or dead who included 40 pages of ego massage from the general public under the premise of wanting 'to give them a voice'? All in all a bizarre few months for MLT and to top it all his book has fallen out of the top 20 of the book sellers hot bed of sales - the hard back non fiction chart as at 12/09/09. Suffice to say it does not figure anywhere in the overall bestsellers charts. Another serious lack of misjudgement to boost sales of a dull book or a simple error lying about helping to execute a betting scam? In any event I am surprised it's gone quiet and trust that MLT isn't planning on laying low until it all goes away - he owes Saints fans more than that. So please let share if you have any recent news or if you agree or disagree that MLT owes us an explanation if his book ia a work of fiction or non-fiction.

The map McMenemy put us on has changed as a result of a massive continental shift and the creatures that walked the football fields of those days are long extinct. The nutjob is the person who can't reason that you cannot even compare the two because in the world of football McMenemy operated in a time so long ago in geographical terms its the equivalent to when the Isle of Wight was still an area of Southampton and you could walk to France without getting your feet wet. I agree with Dibden's post above and once again I have been drawn into the Lowe debate and offered my opinion as oppose to bringing his name up unsolicited to incite ill-feeling in those unable to reason their own arguments. BTW the last time I was called a bell end it had something to do with being able to go like the clappers. You should try it. For now I will take Dibden's advice in the absence of any sensible comments happy to accept that the puerile abuse stengthen's my opinion has having at least some merit. Thanks, I thought it was just me.

Compare the game before Lowe which was during the infancy of the Premiership and Sky and compare it post Lowe. There has been such a sea change during that period that you can't compare but if you do 13th as an average top flight position with very little money or the resources to compete with the big guns was fantastic. In fact comparing achievement vs revenue/resources, what we achieved as a club up to our cup final appearance in 2003 against a team where the value of their star striker could have bought our squad was awesome and the equal and more IMO of anything McMenemy achieved and perhaps some would argue should have achieved far more. We build him up to such great heights and such a sage but in this day and age would he have lasted so long with his managerial track record? An FA Cup win and a one off runners up spot which now is beyond the ability of all but 5 maybe 6 clubs at most even considering the Chelsea ban on transfers. He couldn't achieve the runners up spot now, no manager could at Saints and one knockout trophy today is nothing compared to boring mid table Premiership as infamously the Charlton fans are finding out to their costs after dumping Curbishley. The competition for mid table obscurity in the top flight is intense because of the revenues and need to meet player greed and the influx of foreign investment and the rise of the Champions league all show that we had some spectacular achievements in our early years at SMS. Lowe took us down but player and fan greed/power didn't help and eventually as for all clubs our size all those near misses were eventually going to hit the target so we would have gone eventually without massive investment or an acceptance of relative mediocrity and survival as the objective and which Charlton painfully demonstrated to themselves is not an easy thing to do in football. Are you saying that minus Lowe and with McMenemy at the helm in some capacity we could have once again finished second in the top flight in the past ten years? In any event in terms of achievement I will take an average position of 13th in the Premier league the the average of 12th before Lowe simply because the achievement bar so was placed somewhere in the stratosphere in the late 90's. So thanks for proving my argument with those stats and in the case one place up does not make all the difference in proving life before Lowe was any better. Lowe even made the right call that prudence was best after relegation but he had a manager who can't manage these days unless he can spend fortunes and a major shareholder revolt backed by a mob rule of fans unable to look dispassionately at the reality of the situation. Lowe resided over one almost inevitable relegation but the second was determined and guaranteed when Lowe's war chest was emptied in a desperate attempt to buy promotion via the play offs and the rest is history. Now what was your point I can't remember after all that.

Not me Micky that's why I said a guess. 99% of what gets posted on here is assumptions and second guessing what the club or individuals are going to do. I don't bet but isn't picking a horse to win a race a guess based on a punters interpretation of past performances? Sometimes he gets it right especially if he his shrewd and not blinded by a horses name alone. People chastise Lowe for not making any monetray contribution to the club and in fact accuse him of the opposite. From day one of Lowe's arrival was McMenemy seriously any different? IMO he was always quick to chide and undermine whilst cashing in his voting rights that afforded him the ability to make a difference. Meanwhile, Lowe built the club to a new peak and as we came down off that peak McMenemy was quick to turn the screws publicly instead of taking his issues to Lowe directly who was probably and rightly a bit miffed that a potentially senior director could cash in on the club and the new beginnings so easily. There was no love lost on either side but Lowe in this instance had more justification IMO. Again, I have no idea if all this is true but would like to know if I am on the right lines and based on my interpretation of past form my guess is I am. As others have said I am more than grateful for McMenemy's managerial contribution and some great memories but as has been proven men who rest on past reputations alone have a tendency of either getting found out for being complacent or becoming bitter and twisted. Form is temporary, class if permanent an adage that fits all situations in life and McMenemy post his managerial duties was not the most classy of individuals although his form as our best manager to date is unequalled but hopefully about to be broken as part of the brave new dawn.

And you believe that McMenemy made any contribution to those thousands of pounds? I don't, my guess would be that Crouch paid and took McMenemy as his guest because Crouch likes to consider himself as part of the Saints dynasty as it were - bought in or otherwise of course. Would McMenemy even allow Crouch to breathe the same air as him if Crouch wasn't loaded and gave McMenemy the opportunity for a free ride? IMO I don't think so and now the gravy train has departed the stadium what next for McMenemy? The personal purchase of a season ticket or membership? I doubt if he is even on the ticket office records.

I wasn't aware this was a nomination campaign

Yes don't go - it was poor value for money 5 years ago god knows what it is like these days with a strong Euro and no doubt some lustre has faded. Take them to Paris for the weekend - far more memorable. Failing that give your wife a christmas present and take her to Paris and dump the kids on the relatives otherwise whats the point of having relatives?

Thanks but don't call me there.

Not at all, he is an old one and deservedly so IMO based on his interviews with the media. Don't set yourself up as a spokesperson for the fans if you are going to give the impression we all share his views and with the same ignorant delivery.

Yep I saw that programme on Monday night and certainly was not suprised to hear the news. At 65 he was no advert for good living but still the only cookery programmes I ever made a point of watching before or since. Has the C word ever been said so often in one programme as that one the other night? Didn't reflect to well on him tbh and watching it with my wife I started to get a bit uncomfortable - wish i had never saw it - a very sad and bitter man. A great pity.

Hatch you do have a valid point but it is not the case across the board as many are in solitary confinement and moved from prison to prison. Hatch, the question to you then is if life in jail mean't life and jail meant not a version of the YMCA would you still support the death penalty? As Bungle said the state of our Prison's and the influence it has on justice is another debate entirely and cannot be used as a justification for the death penalty. Given a reform of our prisons and sentencing would you drop all notion the death penalty is a good idea?

Tokyo I have never seen the film but vaguely remember reading about it was Kevin Spacey in it?

Exactly, I can remember New York before their mayoral reforms and the odds of being murdered in some districts were no better than 33/1. It wasn't the death penalty that cleaned up the streets.

Perhaps it is now the other way around and I don't suppose given his friendship with Crouch that he is best drinking buddies with Andrew Oldknow. I may be wrong but McMenemy strikes me as the type of person who had burned plenty of bridges along the way and not just with Lowe. Perhaps he forgot that old saying - be nice to people on your way up as you never know who you'll meet on the way back down. Perhaps he is affronted by the fact he has to purchase a ticket? Can't see why he should be as it would be the first positive contibution he could be making for years IMO.

Two words that should end all debate on if there should be a death penalty. David Bentley. If anyone of you get sentenced for a serious crime you did not commit - no amount of monetary compensation will return you from the Gallows. If you think the situation in America is reasonable do you want us to bring back hanging in this country? Seriously? If we had it how many rights of appeal could you go through before sentencing is carried out? It would be worse than Death Row and actually reverse the purpose/effect you presumably hope to achieve. Perhaps it's your idea for the next saga of Reality TV. Those who seem in favour come across as a baying mob of red necks without any argument other than 'hang em high' and 'make 'em pay', all very classy and I suggest you move to Saudi Arabia. Those against are the 'Limpy left' are we? Politics doesn't come into it and all votes since it was abolished have not required the government of the day's majority to kick it out.

On holiday in Florida we were watching the classic car parade at Old Town Kissimee. Walking past the fairground attractions on the way to the car my son and my little neice came over and asked if I had some quarters. I was digging deep and asked what they need them for. Innocently, they said oh there is a man in a chair over there and if you put in the money you can watch him fry! I went and had a look at this 'amusement' and it was pretty sick to say the least 'put in a dollar and watch me fry', nice and suffice to say because of my niece's age we moved on and it wasn't until I explained why to my teenage and complaining son did he appreciate the 'oddness' of having it as an amusement. Death penalty reduces crime? My guess it develops behaviours in children that killing can be acceptable and we are soon back to the public 'lynchings' of the white America in the 60s. No surprise I was in Florida then.

I have never trolled on this site and always given my view as an ardent Saints fan who believes support should always be unstinting but never blind.

Thump...too late.

Interesting update, thanks On Board.

It's a minority of at least 2 if that's any consolation. Personally, I think the man lacks any humility and believes he is the equal of some of the great managers of his time which of course he wasn't. He was a good manager for us and yet for some reason that elevated him up with some of the greatest managers that have ever lived who happend to be around during his era. McMenemy is a classic example IMO of a man who believed the hype. The day he cashed in his meal ticket given to him by SFC PLC and forfeited any future right to have a direct influence on the direction of club was the day he basically undermined any future commentary he unwelcomely provided. Didn't stop him though did it which is arrogant / ignorant in the extreme to moan about something he gave up the right to influence. Wasn't that why he went to shareholder meetings with his wife? Just my opinion as always and thanks Dibden wasn't aware I needed to get that off my chest.

Either way this is not a question of costs but ethics and do we want a society where a lynch mob wearing wigs that deluded by anger and outrage help convine a jury of blood letters send an innocent man to his death? An eye for an eye and all that is as outdated as the time is was written. What next capital punishment Saudi style? Thank god we live in a tolerant society where very rarely a heinous and replusive crime is committed. The person(s) pay the price and IMO at times have an easy ride (that needs to change) but that does not mean we should condone an act equally barbaric. What would we do with near feral kids like we read about recently or the killers of little Jamie Bulger - get the crocodile clips out? We need to remember the behaviours are learned or some are simply criminally insane but the criminal psychologists and other experts can learn a lot from their gruesome crimes that may help prevention in the future or lead to earlier detection of potential mass murder so keeping them in purgatory for the REST of their lives may have a benefit.

Worrying and a mentality that could see you easily one day stand on the hatch, Hatch,

Absolutely correct - not having a death penalty in this country separates us thankfully from those red necks in America that do. Living the rest of their lives in purgatory for their heinous crimes with 23 hours in a locked cell is probably a greater punishment than the chance to end it all. The issue is not the death penalty ( too many miscarriages of justice for it to be warranted let alone living in a society that condones barbarous justice) but how prisoners are allowed to live out their life on Death Row or for any crime that carries a 'life' sentence. Having a sports day to raise morale at Broadmoor doesn't really meet what should be the remit for serving a life sentence for mass murder. There are better ways to make criminals on the very margins of society pay for their crimes and it is not giving them a quick get out by a bullet in the head, a rope around their neck, a lethal ****tail in their viens or plugging them into the National Grid. Likewise, payment is not delivered by unlimited social contact with other cell mates, access to telephones, TVs, pool tables or ping pong. Life should mean life but no court should be able to play god and an innocent man can be brought back from purgatory but not hell.

A genuine LOL moment at some quality banter - makes a nice change.