Nineteen Canteen

So where are they now Toomer or where were they during the interim period run by the Wilde and then Crouch debacle? Lowe was used as an excuse by the apologists and corporate fans who only wanted a diet of premiership football. The reality being as any true fan will acknowledge that we had been very lucky to enjoy top flight football for 27 years long before Lowe arrived with at least 5 near misses regards relegation. Unfortunately, the move to SMS proved one thing that we are club with premership facilities but not a strong fanbase as we hoped we had and had we still been at the Dell I doubt we would even attract the crowds we do now because of the archaic surroundings would put many off. The fact you believe one man can decimate our fanbase by 50% is testament to how poor some of our supporters are compared to the likes of you and me who have remained loyal throughout. There were better ways to protest about Lowe but removing your support for me was never an option and neither was it during the unwelcome and but thankfully brief campaign of Wilde and Crouch when IMO any damage already done was exacerbated to make the situation terminal in it's decline.

I wasn't aware I was defending him merely pointing out the inability for other to accept the reality of our past and the roles played by significant others. Lowe was the best of a bad bunch IMO and in the absence of anyone else or the inability for the 3 monkeys to work together he deserved our support.

That is the real crux of the issue. There is no dispute in my mind that these were mindless act's of terrorism but the action or lack of it as events unfolded remains very much open to conjecture. There are a few well informed individuals on here and prior to the plane crashing into the WTC was this not picked up by Air Traffic Control? If they did pick it up it would it perhaps be understandable they assumed something had gone seriously wrong with the plane albeit more innocently and were helplessly witnessing a crash disaster. However, after it hit the WTC and another plane must have been registered as being off course what action was taken then? The image many have spoken about is Bush being informed during that school visit and sitting motionless and apparently helpless. If that was anyone else wouldn't they have have made their apologies in the interests of national sceurity and all that? Could it be nothing could be done at such short notice and that a decision to eliminiate packed civilian planes was unable to be reached in the panic? A very tough call to make for anyone. Ultimately, was this not a simple cover up to hide the ineptitude of the US President and preserve the integrity of the world's most powerful man and his decision makers?

That's good. I take it another opinion of mine is ratified by your attempts to ridicule and not take the time to comment on some of my views. Thank you it's appreciated - if somewhat back handed. I can guarantee Gemmel it will be you and others like you who will soon be on the backs of Messrs Liebherr, Cortese and Oldknow because you offer the equivalent of 'knock down ginger' when it comes to adding worthwhile comment and support.

Very good read Hamster and I can relate to much of your experiences. I have spent a lot of time in NY in the past and regularly visited the Two Towers before 9/11. I went back several times in 2002 and 2003 on business but was never able to 'steel' myself to go and visit the site on my own and thankfully most of my contacts had moved to Midtown by then anyway. I haven't been back since and I will never forget how the repurcussions of that day rippled across the lives of those directly or indirectly involved with the atrocity. I don't think there would have been any shame on your part if you had avoided the visit to not spoil your trip because we all try to cope with things like this in very different ways. That said I'm pleased you made the visit accidently or otherwise and that it helped you in some way even if it was just a good feeling having made the visit.

Some people can't let it go. Regardless of your views on Lowe to deface club property is shameful and a pathetic attempt at trying to eradicate one's personal memories of Lowe. No doubt Mr Liebherr and the team will spend some money to replace or renovate the board as even they can't rewrite history. In any event it is ignorant in the extreme to ignore the good Lowe did and whilst he made some major errors he was not exactly alone in the past 5 years in exacerbating the club's perilious position. Lowe was culpable but so were many others and throwing money at a lost cause doesn't distinguish any guilt IMO. It's ironic that McMenemy's picture has been returned to the boardroom. He undoubtedly delivered our greatest moment but post his managerial days did more to undermine those in the boardroom than support them IMO and latched onto Crouch like a leech when the opportunity afforded him. McMenemy was as damaging and divisive as Lowe during the past 10 years or so and IMO contributed very little to the cause. Perhaps both their portraits should be hung alongside each other in the boardroom as a testament to the fact that a combination of their talents is what is required by a football club chairman and that IMO neither Crouch or Wilde had the talent in either sphere and whose actions never really matched their rhetoric. It happened and vandalising any historical record isn't going to eradicate the fact. Do we rewrite history by removing the name Ali Dia from our records or Vincent Pericard as examples of great footballing decisions? Perhaps MLT for trying to make personal gains from betting at the start of a game? There has been plenty of heros and villians along the way and to physically scratch them from history shows a distinct lack of maturity to say the least.

Correct but you are not a programme maker with juicy documentaries to sell.

Verbal who is Wright and what connections does he have to make him such an authority on the subject? My guess it's nothing more that informed opinion as oppose to the real facts that will for sometime yet remain locked away from the public eye and rightly so. You are obviously well informed but also in the programme making business and therefore governed by ratings as much as documenting the facts and it would take a series of considerable length to prove/disprove any theories and the reality is that won't be allowed to happen in our lifetime otherwise why have intelligence services? Your views I suggest are skewed by the potential box office allure this atrocity affords programme makers and now I understand your role your position on 9/11 is put into context.

I agree, I have only seen two games this season but in both he has looked very accomplished and surprised he wasn't snapped up by all the others with their nose in the trough from the off, long before we were able to come along sniffing out any missed little truffles.

Indisputable. Verbal and others would do well to remember that just because it's in a book it does not mean anything other than it's the author's one sided take on proceedings. So i have no doubt Ahmed Rashid and Laurwence Wright's books are informative opinion but they are not authoriative and the only files that can really tell us the reason's why are the intelliegence files of America and it's allies and they won't be on sale in Waterstones just yet. If Rashid had links to OBL do you think OBL was stupid enough to tell him the reality or perhaps used Rashid to peddle the message he wanted the West to hear?

Verbal are you asking us to define a tragedy? I agree many more have died in Iraq and allegedly under false pretences but I doubt very much that a book has been written as fact on the intelligence America and it's allies had to justify their actions - strictly classified would be my guess. Perhaps in Iraq's case it was just to overthrow a despotic and evil dictator and release it's citizens from his evil tyranny. Not a bad objective and hopefully a step in the right directon but tbh I am no expert whatsoever but believe the world is a better place without Saddam. What next - North Korea? Although in terms of loss of life as a consequence the two towers atrocity I have no doubt you see it as a mere blip compared to other tragic 'mass murder' events it was iconic and opened the eyes of the West to it's actual vulnerability. Iconic and tragic in the same way as the shootings of Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Lennon - all tragic and futile but just one loss of life. In these matters you must be reverential and there is a time to ask the questions about the decision makers but it is not this week. Just like on the 11th hour on the 11th day of the 11th month we don't discuss the strategies of war but merely the futility of it all and remember those who lost their lives indirectly or otherwise.

Couldn't watch the programme and nor could I watch the programme about the last calls from the Towers shown on Sunday night. The image of the moment of the first tower collapsing is indelibly printed on my mind along with the knowledge that for many the world did change forever regardless of any subsequent actions or conspiracy theories. Up until that first collapse we looked on in horror trying to comprehend the horror and carnage that these obvious acts of terrorism had caused and how many must have died in the immediate impact whilst moving our thoughts on to how the hell were they going to get the rest out especially those in the floors above the impact area. That first collapse answered those questions quite comprehensively and the rest of the day and weeks for me was a blur as we tried to cope with the day's responsibilities and planning to take on the work of our colleagues in New York. If I'm honest I wish they didn't relive these scenes or consider it appropriate to play those tapes. It is absolutely right to mark the anniversary every year with a service of remembrance for those who lost their lives and to ensure they are not forgotten but for me some of this footage should be archived for another generation as I am not sure what purpose it serves other than add to the suffering of those most affected by the atrocity. Perhaps Obama can make an immediate impact by simply abolishing the Labour Day holiday and replace it with an appropriately named 9/11 holiday so America and it's friends can never forget. Equally I have always been of the opinion that the 11th November should be a national holiday for us instead of some unrecognisable 'May Day' celebration. One thing is for certain TV documentaries that for some may serve as a shocking reminder and for others may seem gratuitious and ratings savvy are not the way to remember or move on from these insane acts.

Don't businessmen rountinely check what they are getting into?

I agree and gave up betting on horses after the Fallon affair as guilty or innocent the whole role of the jockey and the non-triers rule is so open to abuse and it's depressing to see him come back. Whilst, Le Tissier's action is not 'blatant' match fixing there was obviously a risk it could affect the result and he must have been very over-confident to not recognise that starting a game and not focusing on winning it as oppose to winning a bet was detrimental and offensive to all but those involved in the 'profit'.

Must be a slow news day I agree but why give the press the ammunition. As with Pinnacle it shows MLT's judgement and integrity IMO aren't mirrored 100% with all football and sports fans. It's cheating regardless of how amusing it may be and shows a more sinister side to that title 'Taking le Tiss'. Very unfortunate and I doubt he will be able to 'straight bat' the questions that follow as he did those about Pinnacle.

Taking Le Tiss - it's all in his book which I have diligently been delving into to try and disprove my original thoughts. Frustratingly, it seems my views have more foundation than any alleged attempt to antagonise the blind faithful and simply reading the reviews on here and in the press, the book title and his recent media interviews MLT does come across as an arrogant and lazy maverick off set by a laid back and personable charm. More Frank Worthington than a Beckham or a Gerrard.

Correct and he admitted earlier in the week that Pinnacle also spoke with other ex-saints such as WGS, Shearer and Dowie as they wanted to go for the 'box-office appointment' to get the crowds back in..... Now I wonder how they were actually planning to fund the purchase and support the club going forward if they were planning to recruit a box-office manager rather than a manager better qualified as a long term appointment and with a record to rebuild sides? We got off lightly but don't knock him.

Yep its called acid and Coke and Cillit Bang will remove the enamel from your teeth even quicker.

Shame on you Johnny, thought you were above endorsing libellous sh1te from the likes of that gormless idiot.

Must admit I have always used Micheldever Tyres for the value and convienience but the webaddress put up by Mr Bognor definitely were cheaper. On my wife's Cooper S we have had Dunlop run flats and have now changed to Pirelli run flats mainly because of the huge price differential. However the Dunlops lasted longer around 15,000miles and the Pirellis we have had some issues with uneven wear despite alignment checks and they don't seem to last as long. TBH I find the whole tyre thing a bit of a minefield and amazed that a set of tyres cannot easily last 25,000 miles + as they use to on my Triumph 1300.

Suicide amuse you Tame does it, or the fact I don't recall the fate of every single professional football player that ever played? If you recall what I said about myself then even by the lowest standards of this forum you have managed to go a bit lower. Well done you really are a very sad little man who continually makes the most pathetic attempt's of cyber bullying I have ever seen. Once again no attempt to comment on my opinions as some others have instead you prefer to reinforce my opinions as having some credibility by simply attacking me personally.

Wes did you listen to MLT's interview with Mayo? If you were a football coach/manager and you had a player who barely paid lip service to your footballing ideas or changes with regard to sports science such as nutrition what opinion would you form of that player? These are my opinions based on what I have listened to from MLT not something I have made up.

You pay your money you have a right to an opinion.

Don't you agree though his loyalty was for the wrong reasons or misplaced. He seemingly sacrificed his undoubted potential for footballing greatness to stay a Saints player IMO and that is something almost inconceivable even in the early 90s. I'm not sure his down to earth manner was mirrored in the dressing room or his attitude to his England career judging by his comments but I may be wrong.