Clifford Nelson

I agree. I was talking more about the long term. In the short they will have to do what they are told, since there are no alternatives. And if they don't, I'm afraid it curtains. Quite apart from that I can't figure out what position Lallana is suited for. With more decisive skills maybe on top of a midfield diamond, but I doubt he is good enough.

Spot on, but add to that that the young players associate it with everything they have learnt whatever that is. What we've seen are the excuses ant the attitude that losing doesn't matter. It's not a place where our players grow two inches, but where they are gettin the wiff of complacency, breed it in and relaxes.

Super head and comical feet, but I'm sure he must improve with them.

I'm pleased to say that I agree, and especially pleased to note that it wasn't only me who spotted the stinkers of the season so far in the performances (if that is what it was) of Mellis and Thompson. Not everybody did and I have been arguing with somebody who thought that JT warranted a 7 and that he "tested the fullback". Oh dear! I've posted about wingers elsewhere, but I'm also wondering about Morgan. Is he maybe just a lightweight in the middle of midfield, because after every match I can never remember having seen him. Spotted him three times yesterday. Two passes and one he made a hash of straight to the opposition. I'm not sure what he is. Where are the ballwinning or the killer passes. Or is it all because of the lack of winger. Pass for now.

I was a winger myself in my days (oh, them days...). It suited my game in that I could use the line as my crutch and only worry about what was ahead and inside me. Playing in positions in the middle of the pitch was uncomfortable. Maybe too much to think about. When I started coaching I quickly sorted out which ones were wide players and who belonged in the middle, who were attack minded and who preferred defense. It worked. Every time. I have also seen the pro game destroy genuine talent by re-schooling boys to what they are not suited to. That's why I don't think you can make a wide player out of something else, or vice versa. And that's also why I am doubting both Lallana and James. Lallana hungers for a free role, which no doubt he had in his boy's side, but on this level he isn't talented enough to be given that, and you then need to ask yourself whether he has got a role. James is decidedly unspectacular, but looks better as a RB than anything else. We have Fish and Holmes who must be tried LM when they are fit, but RM is totally talent free as far as I can see. If there is a pacy rightsided player out there, anywhere, who can cross a ball, he must be found.

I agree with Harding. He was my mom as well. Regarding JT I am still flabbergasted about your opinion. I'm not prejudiced against him. Indeed I thought that AP had done the right thing in subbing Mellis, who was totally ineffectual. I was then perturbed to see JT being totally at a loss on the right wing. As far as I can recall and as I agonized during the game, he didn't test anything, lot less the left back. I didn't blame him for the goal against. He was one of for. The first was Saga, who gave up the chase, second was JT who watched no 3 go past with the ball. There was no challenge, no chase. Then it was James and one more who I can't identify in my mind. I've seen many poor performances in my day, but this was down there amongst the worst. A period in the reserves is strongly needed.

The reason Paterson was poor was that he is the 'wrong' player for Lambert to play with. Lambert is the target and needs a runner. Somebody who will run on to the nodded down ball with the only thought of getting it into the box. Paterson is another target man, and you could see it. He dealt with Lambert's nod down by holding it up again. A target man for the target man, if you will. No great surprise then that it looked so much better with Saga. It's his kind of game if he can be bothered. If Saga goes we have nobody who can do that job. Remember when Paterson looked good. That was when he was partnered with Saga and Stern John, who was also happy to be a foil for Paterson's nods and pushes. It's going back to basics, which is to have round shapes in round holes. Players have a natural way to play and you should not re-school them, but help them playing their role more efficiently. I once hade a natural right winger in the Tyro league side I managed. He ran the wing with pace and crossed the ball from the age of 9. As a youth player his pro club re-schooled him to right back. He was a very average right back and he never signed professional forms. He was a brilliant winger though.

If you had seen Mellis and Thompson today you would have wondered what is wrong in the world. It was excruciating. Thank good Harding, Lambert, Hammond and Trotman provided some hope. Interesting that they are all newcomers. Like you started another thread: What on earth has been going on in this club? Regarding wingers both Fish and Holmes are left footed and I'm not sure about Fish as an out and out winger yet. We haven't got a right footed wide player in the club as far as I know, which is why we are playing what was a poor centre midfielder, re-schooled to right back on the right wing when Murty is fit. He is not the answer.

I was about to ask who the two tosspots are who gave Thompson their mom votes, and then I came across your post. What on earth are you talking about. Thompson played immediately in front of me where I sat in the Kingsland, and a more pathetic performance is difficult to imagine. He contributed nothing and hardly ever touched the ball. When passed it he very clearly only stood there wondering what to do with it. He is young, so I felt sorry for him being so out of his depth in front of 20000 spectators, but "tested their fullback" and "final ball needs to improve"? The left back rang rings around him (remember the Brentford goal?) and he didn't show signs of either first, middle or final ball. What on earth did you see?

I agree completely about the lightweights. It is very worryingbecause I can't see a role for them. And as for Thompson...what is it that makes a player completely fail to perform in any perceivable way? My comment regarding James need to be tempered. I said OK, nothing more, and the judgement was based on his defending as a fullback. He doesn't cross like an offensive fullback and he definitely hasn't got the potential for a winger. As for the Brentford fullback running through no less than four saints players...It started with Saga giving up the chase; Thompson, being entirely consistent with his overall performance, watching listlessly as he went past; and the James and a fourt player who's identity I can't remember, both rather pathetically admiring the performance without appearing to interfer. It is the thing which is similar to the 54 all out collapse, and I can't for the life of me understand why it keeps on happening. I'm waiting with anticipation for more signings, because as a team we're still weak as kittens. Like I forecasted early on, it isn't a matter of 2 or 3 signings. It's a matter of replacing the entire team, apart from possibly KD.

Wingers are to a great extent born, not made. It isn't within Lallana's capabilities to be a pacy wide player who runs and crosses. I think we all know that and the question is more whether he should be retained for any other qualities? I'm increasingly unsure about that. Mellis couldn't produce anything on either the left or right and is clearly not a winger. He had a clear chance to score, lost his marbles and made a horrible mess of it. Unless he was ill I can't see a future for him. Thompson's performance was probably as shocking as we will ever see. He just didn't know what to do out there and the game escaped him completely. He may be back one day, but shouldn't be for a long time. Schneiderlin didn't perform again. He is not providing dominance. What is he there to do I keep wondering. Paterson was used as the runner to Lambert and didn't perform the role well. He's no runner, he is an inexperienced target man and performed best when he was paired with Saga as his runner. Saga did much better when he came on. On the positive side Harding did well, as did Hammond (he may become very dominant eventually), Lambert, Trotman (with his head, not his feet, which were somewhat comical), Perry and, I thought for the first time, that James did OK. But we need help with wide players who can, like Ted Bates once said about Terry Paine, "put the boil on". There is nobody around at the moment to do that, so to many times there is a question of what to do with the ball. There should always be a winger to play it to.

Lallana is the constant enigma, but he isn't good enough to be an enigma to bother us too much. The truth is that he doesn't score and he doesn't provide killer passes, so why would he be an asset up front or supporting the striker? He also, very clearly, is not a winger, since he isn't providing crosses. It looks more that he isn't prepared to knuckle down to the discipline required to hold a place in the team, but insists in playing his own game, something which he has done, no doubt, since boyhood, being the best player in his boy's teams. He is now 22 and should start shouldering responsibility, and instead we are treating him as if he is still "promising". "Promising what?" would be a good question. As far as skills goes he isn't an MLT nor any other genius who should be given a free role so that they can give the team of their best. A time in the reserves to make his mind up on what his game is all about would probably not be bad.

Does anyone know why Hockaday was on gardening leave and what happened to him?

Sorry, but you've got it wrong. It was not several years of good work screwed up by a badly timed Administration. It was several years of awful decisionmaking, self-aggrandisement, backstabbing, interference and God knows what which led to the club having gone bust. BUST. That was the reason for Administration. The money had run out, the bank wouldn't honour our cheques, we were quite simply BANKRUPT. Note what Phil points out: The young players are terrified. Do you think that's because of a badly timed Administration!? As if it was some kind of business ploy. Please!

When Phil started this thread it wasn't about the Pinnacle affair. It was about the sickness in the club and what has been going on for years, which has put us where we are with very doubtful attitudes in the club as a whole. It makes complete sense to try to purge the defeatism. Having had the team lose another two games in similar fashion to last year must make us question a lot of things. If like Phil says young players are terrified, than what is wrong? Aren't the same people around the Academy now as were then? To have a go at MLT is one of the most ridicolous ideas. Didn't we all notice the welcome he got when arriving at the Millwall game? To repeat: The problem was not 3 weeks of Pinnacle failures, but what has been going on over many years. Let's get rid of the ballast and move on properly.

The problem is much larger than most posters seem to realize. We have players who are not nearly good enough for League 1 football. Which are the teams who would like to take them and pay them the salaries we contracted with them when we were in CCC? Think about it. We have Tommy Forecast on a FIVE year contract on CCC money. Who in their right mind will want to pay that? Two more years of Pulis? And so it goes. The sad fact is that it may be useful for the morale and future of the club to actually pay off the contracts to those who haven't got a future here and wish them the best of luck. They are in the way for the change of attitude in the club which is an absolute necessity. Players who are hanging around training knowing full well that they don't stand a chance of a first team start are a bad influence on the youngsters who could eventually make it.

I agree with your points, and if I understand them right it isn't about Pinnacle or Administration, or the difficult pre-season, it's an illness which has been fermenting in the whole of the club for many years. I banged on about the lack of a "winning habit" when AP came in and said the lack of "winning mentality". It seemed obvious to me, so I don't want to pretend to be especially clever for being first. I have also mentioned the Academy and all other youth work we have done through the years. That should be fostering an attitude as well as technical skills. Wingers, midfielders and goal keepers are in many ways born, not made. You play them in the positions they are suited for and then help them make the most of it. But you must make them understand that they play the game for one reason only, and that is winning. Instead excuses have always been rife and every event is spun out of all reality. The people who have been doing this with our young players are still, as far as I know, at the club. So why should there be an improvement? Years of mismanagement and neglect is not going to be eradicated in a few weeks, but AP has made a start, as has the new owner, and I hope AP especially will concentrate at playing the game in a simple way and not hope that clever tactical arrangements will improve things. We haven't got the players to do that. Square pegs in square holes and a winning mentality. It is not going to come easy, but we must master that first before we try to be clever. That makes me question certain hyped players as well. If there isn't a position where Lallana and Schneiderlin can make a real impact and provide end products, however clever they may be, are they what we want right now, and are they really as good as we keep pretending.

At his age he shouldn't be "promising" or show "potential" anymore. He is 22 after all. I just wonder if he hasn't been hyped for the odd sign of cleverness, when in reality he neither scores, nor provides killer passes. His tackling has improved, but that's not why he's in the team. I'm afraid Schneiderlin is another one who doesn't really provide an end product in spite of his ball skills. It would be easier to have more ordinary wingers, and we have got a couple in the club already. At least our strikers would get some service.

It looks to me like we have fallen for a lot of propaganda. Lallana keeps having some magic, but at 22 it ought to be obvious instead of hidden. Schneiderlin is another magic maker who doesn't seem to stand up to serious scrutiny. Maybe we ought to get back to simple stuff and play two CMs who tackle and run, wingers who cross the ball and CBs who defend. I'm also very doubtful about which players ought to be saved from last years team. This club seems to have provided a haven for defeatism and maybe many of the players are beyond saving. The club needs another core of fighters and winners, and they aren't here at the moment. And what is going on in the academy and the reserve team, where the winning spirit should be honed. Same old regime as prviously?

Since he is an offensive midfielder with a goal ratio of about 1:10, who will be his defensive partner. Morgan, Gillet or Wotton? Since Gillet is out of favour, and nobody wants Wotton, how's Morgan as a defensive midfielder?

And watched by many but never signed... Why?

But does it explain why he isn't even in the squad?

And so it should be.

Very wise (although absolutely not Wise). We need an experienced footballing head with his management and coaching days behind him to deal with the whole of the footballing strategy for the club which will leave AP to concentrate on the first team squad and results. This somebody needs to have learnt the biggest and most difficult lesson of all: To avoid the temptation to interfere in the management of the first team!!! Then all will be well.

No club in their right mind will publicise how much money is available for players. Can you imagine what that will do with the asking price?