Sour Mash

Depends which bits - of course some parts are grim and some estates I wouldn't want to live in - but all have very easy access to areas with abundant work and stuff to see and do - they are great locations to live in for overall opportunities. Subsidised housing within 10/15mins journey to the city centre of one of the biggest/best cities in the world is an opportunity. I would have much more sympathy for people stuck out on a sink estate on the outskirts of Hartlepool, Wrexham, Burnley - I would have a bit more understanding (although wouldn't go as far as agreeing with it) for the "lack of opportunites argument" for youths growing up in places like that.

Agreed that that there is no easy answer and no one single "cure", guess a combination of approaches, just about getting the balance right.

With the utmost respect to you and your family members, anyone who decided not to go to Southampton v Torquay becasue they were worried about riots is an absolute cretin, it's not f****g Hackney.

No end of zone 2 (London travel) locations that have loads of massive housing estates full of subidised council homes. Islington, Southwark, Battersea, Clapham, great areas, with one of the greatest cities in the world on their doorstep. I know lads that grew up on council blocks of flats in the Borough of Camden that were literally in Covent Garden. Locations that a normal working person paying rent, could never, ever afford privately. That is a massive advantage for finding work - subsidised housing in central city locations, while many others have to do an hour+ expensive commute every day.

Zero tolernace to law breaking? You decide you can't be @rsed to work? Decided you'd rather rob, steal and riot? Fine, but no 2nd chances, no ifs or buts, make it clear from a young age, you break the law like this, you go to jail. I know that's a massively unfashionable comment, but the softly, softly approach that this country has taken for years, clearly hasn't worked. Outreach workers, community funding, efforts to "understand have clearly failed. Youths will multiple convictions only being sent down after the 7th/8th/9th fairly serious crime? It failed, didn't work. Make it clear - work hard and you can have a decent life, commit crime and you'll be f****d - it's not hard really.

I think it is you that needs to reread my post- I did not say that the jobs available didn't pay. I said that teenage kids look at working in McDs or an evening cleaning job in an office as uncool and not worth the effort involved. Why graft for 5 hours of an evening, when you can rob a passerby for a mobile phone or steal from your local shops in 10 minutes? You do a massive disservice to the hard-wroking, law-abiding poor, as you make excuses for those rioting due to them being "poor" - when there are plenty of other people from "poor" backgrounds that somehow find it possible to keep to the law, work hard and do their best to better their lives without being c***s to those around them. If you're 17 years old, what overheads do you have? The vast majority will live at home with their folks. Many in subidised city centre location council properties. London has endless estates in gret locations tht I'd love to live in, great access into all central locations, plenty of stuff to see and do for free and the majority of these estates are full of people very lucky to have heavily subsidised/free accommodation in such great locations. London has loads of opportunities for those bothered to get off their @rse and graft for them.

Sums it up for me.

"need or scarcity of means of subsistence; needy circumstances" what does that have to do with what has happened over the last three/four days?

There are plenty of jobs available, even now in the economic downturn. Many of these rioting actually have a massive advantage in the job market as they live in free/heavily subsidised housing in central city locations, giving them easy access to places of work. All my local takeaways (I live in London) are staffed by very recent immigrants from the Indian sub-continent. The cleaners at my office and gym are all recently arrived Brazilians. There is plenty of work if you're happy to do it. The problem is the whole culture of kids growing up thinking "why should I do a s**ty job like that, much easier/cooler to rob/steal from others". Same with at school, yes not all schools in the inner cities are exactly great, but most are staffed with enthusiastic, good quality teachers that would love to have the opportunity to teach, engage with and improve these kids if they actually gave a f**k. The problem with apologists like you is that you do such a disservice to all the hard working, poor kids that come from council estates, one-parent families or whatever and make an effort, try a bit at school, do a cr@ppy job in McDs while they're in college and don't think "oh f**k this, its a bit of an effort, I'm going on the rob, it's a lot more fun/easier than all this".

What the f**k are you on about? Trust the likes of you to belittle normal folk out to protect their communities. The silent majority of this country have had enough of the softly, softly approach of authorities to groups of individuals that have made many parts of our inner cities dangerous places to live. Thank god there are still people who are happy to put their neck on the line to stand up to these groups.

Oh and we have found "to stop this scummy behaviour from continuing for generations to come then WE, as a society, have to find a way for some of our youth to move themselves out of poverty in a socially acceptable way" - it's called f*****g WORK!

Please tell us your definition of poverty in England in 2011?

Is this post serious?

They don't look like "Casuals" to me and wouldn't fit with any football lads I know. Groups of lads from Spurs (Enfield), and Millwall/Charlton (Eltham) along with Sikhs in Southall out protecting and keeping the peace in their areas, top, top stuff.

Your first paragraph has a fair bit of sense in it, but it goes downhill after that. What about all the other young people from poorer backgrounds that manage to avoid the temptation provided by all this materialism and don't rob, loot and bully to get what they want? There are millions that manage it, so these scum can't blame their behaviour on this. And how many top designer stores were actually burgled? A few trainer shops, but the vast majority was pure vandalism, theft for the sake of theft, what about the picture of the lad with the massive bag of Tesco Economy rice? Was that as a result of seeing all the wealth and commercialism? Or was it because he was a little scrote who just took whatever he wanted, just because he could?

Head in the sand? I think you're the one with your head in the sand. Wake up and smell the coffee? People have had enough of your far fetched excuses. I have no doubt it can't be much fun growing up in some of the estates in our big cities. And yes, we've allowed a "culture" to promoted in our media that provides seriously dire role models to young people. But none of that takes away from the individual responsibility of those that CHOOSE to go out and rob, steal, bully from those around them. That's what they're doing. No, if's or buts. Like I say, your sort do such a massive disservice to all those decent people that grow up with very little money, material wealth, single parent families and cr@p role models and actually go out there and make an effort to better themselves. Plenty do it. The work is there. These people CHOOSE not to do that, they have chosen to behave like that and must except the consequences that I really hope are coming their way.

Good stuff!

What if they can't afford Center Parks but can afford Butlins - is that a reason to riot? I think so. What if you can afford to go swimming at off-peak times, but not the peak hours? That's probably fair as well, why should they not have the "right"? What about if you can only afford one new pair of Nike Air max this month and you've seen someone else get two?

Decent news, but note the word "cut" rather than removed......we'll be paying them £100 a week towards their rent rather than £150.............

This is the attitude I seriously can't stand and hold directly responsible for the state of this once great nation. So out of touch. Don't you see that the vast majority of this country's previously silent majority have had enough of the soft treatment of certain sections of society that are seemingly happy to make life hell for those around them. Loads of people grow up without any money, I used to play football over at my local park, didn't cost me a penny, same with a lot of mates who had bugger all money growing up - no flash trainers, hooded jackets and Blackberry Mobiles or Twitter accounts. You do such a diservice to all those decent people that don't have money, that do come from council estates, but work hard and try their best without resorting to being robbing, looting, bullying thugs.

Er, yes I'm perfectly happy to address why they're acting like scum thanks. The thriving "gangster" culture in many of our cities, the attitude of many parts of the black community to "do what you want, don't let anyone tell you otherwise", large parts of society realising they can do what they want and soft modern Britain will do bugger all about it. Apologists like you do a massive diservice to all the decent hard working, "working class" people that don't resort to looting, bullying and intimidating and ruining innocent people's homes and livelihoods, all those who go about their lives working hard to better themselves. London is one of the best, most open-minded cities in the world - work hard, show the right attitude and there are decent opportunities for all. There are no excuses for behaving like these people do, so don't even pretend that there are.

Exactly. You know my thoughts on the issue and what p****s me off even more than those that riot are the pathetic excuses some come out with to somehow justify it "they're poor", "Tory government" "outside of society" - no they're just rotten little scrotes that love to hunt in packs, throw their weight around at any given opportunity and take whatever they can out of the world without putting a single thing back in.

Maybe, but he's completely correct. Hardly surprising though is it?

What are you on about Steve? Don't you know all these people are really poor? How could they all afford Blackberrys?

Spot on. An out of control culture that has been allowed to flourish for far too long in our nation's cities.