Wes Tender

I think that you get the award for the most inane post on this entire thread, which is some achievement, it must be said. Who are these non-entities of whom you speak and which is the talent that Pardew got rid of? Which are the players that the other clubs are rejoicing over for getting rid of them to us? Show me the evidence that Bristol Rovers wanted to sell us Lambert, that Colchester wanted to sell us Hammond, that Dan Harding would not walk into any other team in this division, the same for Jaidi and Weigo when they are part of the playing team. The fact is, that for once we have money behind us and that instead of being a club forced to sell our best players, we are now in a position to force some clubs to sell to us if we make them an offer they can't refuse. You cannot include Rasiak or John as being got rid of by Pardew, as they wanted to move to higher division clubs and Surman had already gone before Pardew arrived. So who did you have in mind? I'm sure that your response will be illuminating. It was definitely a really crap squad that looked better than Premiership Birmingham for over 70 minutes, wasn't it?

You see, this is the difference that being at the game would have made to your perception. I was given an excellent viewpoint behind the goal in the Northam for two of those chances that would have resulted in own goals but for some almost miraculous clearances. The first was an off the line clearance where the ball appeared to have crossed the line, but somehow the defender managed to hook the ball clear by a superb bit of athleticism that IMO 9 out of 10 defenders would have been hard pressed to equal. The second was where the defender mangaged somehow to hit the ball over the bar facing the goal from only a couple of yards out. Had it been a striker hitting it over from that distance, you would have been incredulous that he had missed, but instead you were incredulous that he had managed to put it over the bar when it semed an almost impossible feat. So there you are; those two chances which could have resulted in us being two up, evaded us, whereas on another day they would have gone in. Otherwise, there were a lot of shots from distance, which went just wide, or just over, or straight at the keeper. I agree with you that Saga could well have made the difference over Paterson.

AP's substitutions were spot on IMO. Mellis had been largely ineffectual in the first half and was the key substitution Mills added some real threat down the left after 5 minutes when he looked a bit rusty. Schneiderlin also looked good too in the centre and Thomson added width to the right that was lacking. Paterson had huffed and puffed and achieved little and as there was not another striking option because Saga was away, the alternative was indeed to put Lallana up front to see whether he could either score himself, or provide the chances for Lambert. The trouble was that we attempted strikes too often from distance and should have put the ball into the box at every opportunity. I reckon that Saga could have had two goals, if he was available. We are missing Murty. It is not that Thomas isn't doing OK at RB, moreover that he does not possess a threat going forward up the right wing. A fast player like Weigo would have been ideal in that match, either as a pacy striker running onto balls cleared quickly from defence, or as a winger. Jaidi would have further strengthened the defence, not that it was needed agianst Colchester, apart from their shot against the bar. So all those calling for Pardew to take the blame for his tactics, are wide of the mark. Any calling for his head based on the team's performance ought to step back and debate whether or not the players brought in were bad buys or not. As far as I am concerned, the weakest player so far is Mellis, who came from Chelsea and who will probably develop into a fantastic player over time, but who is not the right player for us in this division and with those players around him right now. All those other signings are really far better than we could have expected under Lowe, even in the Fizzy Pop. For the third division, they are immense signings. With a fit Murty and with Jaidi and Wiego, I believe we have the best team in the division by far. It is too early to make judgements when there were delays in signing the players because of circumstances beyond his control

Cop Out! We were discussing what I have re-quoted below. Originally Posted by sadoldgit Taking the time he was here and taking into consideration the two relegations and administration on the debit side, alongside many other minus points, anybody who believes that the good times under that berk outweighed the bad times, must also be a bit of a berk.

You can't be arsed to go through that lot because most of it shoots down in flames the few good things that you think happened. As to the one point that you have responded with, the question of investment by others when Lowe wasn't here, even that was a minus point attributable to his regime. We were a PLC because of him, Askham and the old board of charlatans and the shares were fragmented in such a way that it was difficult for anybody to invest in us. We only really became a more attrractive proposition when all of them and their shares were worthless. Anyway, I won't change your mind that on balance the good times were on balance greater than the bad times, although you might well be content to be in a small majority that thinks that. Thankfully we are now in a position to look back on it all as a bad dream, although when we wake up to reality, we are in the third division because of those incompetent idiots. But now the sun is shining on us and better things are around the corner and we can look optimistically to our future.

Those Manchester United and Liverpool players must be really p*ssed off at the extra distance they'd have to travel to London of a weekend; unless they're playing there that weekend of course.

Interesting idea for a shirt back? ........................ PAPA ................ . WAI 2 GO

You obviously care enough to spout such rubbish and others obviously care to challenge you on that contention. If you feel that the few things that you consider are his plus points outweigh the negatives, then carry on deluding yourself that the past decade was a golden time in our history. He got us St. Mary's (or more accurately Southampton City Council did) whilst he f*cked up Stoneham. Yes we avoided relegation often by the skin of our teeth, but MLT played a large part in that. We kept the books relatively straight, but never showed any ambition to invest in the players to raise ourselves up a level. We hardly attracted any investment at all in the time Lowe was here. We had the highest turnover of managers in our history during his time. There were hardly any other clubs in British football who could match us in that regard. The instability that caused, led directly to our relegation after 27 years in the top flight. When he returned, he dismissed a decent manager that appeared to be capable of steadying the ship and then he embarked on an experiment so mad, that it resulted in our further relegation and administration. So, on balance, I'm rather inclined to believe that had he and his cronies not arrived at the time of the reverse takeover, we would in all probability be better of than we were when he had to leave. Of course, the only thing that we can thank him for indirectly, is that he reduced the value of the club so much that we attracted the richest owner in our history. In the perspective of 20/30 years of history in the future, we might look back and be grateful that it all came about because of Lowe's incompetence.

Is it the Tunisian Government that issues the work permit? Silly me, I thought that it was the Borders and Imigration authority here in the UK. Of course, it could be that the Civil Service has been infiltrated by large numbers of Muslims as part of some PC initiative, but otherwise the permit should not take long. However, nobody has explained to me why Jaidi hasn't applied for an Indefinite Leave to remain instead, as he has been here over 5 years as I understand it.

So if managing to get a team relegated from the Premiership and then subsequently even from the fizzy pop league isn't failure of the worst kind, what sort of measurement of success can possibly stack up on the other side of the balance sheet to counteract it?

But it's not impossible. The lower down the leagues, the easier it should be for a club with a wealthy owner. A 65% win ratio in the Premiership is only really the preserve of the very top clubs, utilising the very best international stars and the best up and coming home grown youngsters. We have not been able to achieve that degree of success since Lawrie Mac's best season when we were runners up to Liverpool, having topped the old first division for much of the season. Mostly we were propping up the basement with a much lower win rate, as we couldn't afford to splash out on the players who could have improved our fortunes. When we were relegated, several of the better players left and we did not replace them with enough quality to ensure our survival in the fizzy pop, let alone enough quality to get back up. Now, at last, we do have the bones not only of a squad able to survive in this division, but once we have got rid of the points deduction, a team that is on paper possibly the best team in the division in terms of quality and ability. Certainly it is starting to look like a team that ought to be able to win 2 out of every three matches.

Perhaps it's because we have for the past decade been forced to buy cheaper players, selling any that were quality to keep us afloat. We also had a policy that was effectively biased towards believing that more cheap players was better than fewer quality ones. The end result of these policies was that those players were constantly used to seeing their more promising team mates leave to better things, suggesting that they themselves were not good enough, which was largely true. The huge turnover of managers probably had the same affect. As for the fans, we have for too long been faced with our team conceding late goals and being beaten by lesser teams in Cup matches. We have also realised that whenever we produced a half-decent player, he would soon be off, to be replaced by three mediocre players. But although we are now reduced to 3rd division football for the first time in very many years, there are several plus factors which could change all that. For the first time in our history, we now have a significantly wealthy owner. We have a better manager than we could realistically expect to have at this level. We have signed several players who are arguably better than most at this level. Because of that, we are more attractive to other good players. We are no longer forced to sell any player on our books if we do not want to. Our core support has bottomed out and is still at a very good level for this division. It will increase when results start to improve. We have no debt at all. Financial security increases confidence. On the pitch, there is less reason for a losing mentality to prevail, because most of the old squad with the losing habit are no longer in the team. They have been replaced by players used to winning, players who because of their mental toughness and leadership qualities, have been captains of their former teams. Watch things begin to turn around as those players gel together and we start winning matches, climbing back up the table with increasingly confident fan support.

But he has posted a thread which invites constructive debate. If you can't see that and have nothing to add to the debate in the way of constructive opinion, then I suggest that you go to another thread instead.

Yes, you're right. Just think back to the end of 2003 when we had Dodd, Claus, Svensson and Le Saux/Higginbotham (in front of Niemi, rather than Jones for preference), that was pretty well the last decent defensive back row we had. Then when Svensson was injured, Dodd retired, Claus was getting on and less good without Svennson beside him, we got steadily worse. It was criminal really that a manager of Burley's experience never properly addressed the situation, buying up midfielder after midfielder and playing many out of position in defence. At long last, we not only have a decent back four playing in their proper positions, but also some cover for injuries. It is not because we now have some money; it is because we have a manager who realises the importance of a defence and a spine. Tighter funding availability is not an excuse for wasting money on too many players for the midfield at the expense of the defence.

Exactly, Derry, spot on. For all those having a good old whinge at Alpine having the audacity to post a thread that they perceive to be a b*tching, negative piece, read this and argue against it if you feel that Derry is incorrect in his POV, as this is effectively the crux of the OP. Otherwise, keep your personal insults based on personalities to yourselves.

I see no particular reason to jump down Alpine's throat for posting a valid subject for debate. He is perfectly entitled to speculate as to whether the mindset of some players in the squad is 100% focussed on playing to the best of their ability, or whether they would rather be elsewhere. I agree that it is possible that because of what they have been told by their International managers, both Schneiderlin and Saga might be inclined to believe that they ought to have moved elsewhere. Unless they are loaned out to higher league teams though, they might well feel that they are here until January, so ought to buckle down and put themselves in the shop window on the back of some outstanding performances. I think that Lallana might have wanted out when other team mates and friends like Surman left for the Premiership and it might have been tempting for the glory and higher pay. But he has in the past few years witnessed other contemporaries being sold to Premiership clubs, only to warm the bench or play in the reserves. Perhaps he feels that he might be back in the Premiership within 4 years or so and develop better as a player via this route, or at least improve as a player to be sold next year or the year after. There might well be one or two of the players in the squad who could feel that their chances under Lowe and the double Dutch nonentities was better than it is now under ML and Pardew. Because of some astute quality signings, some have moved down the pecking order. But if they are proper professionals, they will either fight to gain a place in the 1st team, or move on, or out on loan if they feel hard done by. The only player who isn't going to make it, even if fit to play, but who probably feels quite happy to pick up a pay cheque whether he plays or not, is Pulis. What exactly do we do about him? Perhaps our resident expert Bizzle can suggest a solution.

That's what they said about Ian Wright too. They were also talking out of their posterior sphincters too.

There are quite possibly entirely reasonable explanations that could cover most of your points. It is one thing Pardew identifying targets and making approaches to them. But then there are quite possibly other clubs making approaches for the same players. And then those players have to want to come here, require medicals etc. Looking at the other side of the coin, a couple of players, Saga and Schneiderlin were expected to leave and yet might be staying. Rumours about Gillet have not yet been proven. The whole transfer deadline day is up in the air, as sometimes a player does not become available until his club signs a replacement. As for Jaidi, we made enquiries and found that there were work permit issues, or perhaps Indefinite Leave to Remain Visa issues, as he has been here for over 5 years, so could qualify to stay. Because of these issues, there was little point in any other club making a move for him, was there, until those issues are resolved? Even then, Jaidi has apparently been training here, probably likes the facilities and the area and provided that he gets a decent deal, could well consider this a good club to be with. As for pressure on Pardew, I believe that once the circumstances are known about who we were after, why they didn't sign, etc, I for one will accept that at the moment, based on improving recent performances, we are not far adrift in turning the corner. And we are still able to take players on emergency loan and others out of contract. It isn't time to panic just yet.

We all know it, but it has not penetrated his cranium yet, despite how brilliant he is intellectually through his attendance at one of the country's elite universities and despite his encyclopaedic knowledge of football acquired from playing in the highest echelons.

There's nothing on the Doncaster website about it. They've signed a couple of players including Billy Sharp on loan, but nothing about Gillett. I'm with you on this one and would like Gillett to stay to prove that Bizzle is talking through his arse.

Has Scacel signed yet?

We could do with a 3 metre tall CB ourselves...

Apart from their nationality differences, the fact that one comes from an Engineering background, the other a Financial one, their ages, one being many, many times more wealthy than the other and their entirely different personalities, other than those aspects, you are right.

They struggled against relegation last season and Hart just about managed to turn it around with James, Campbell, Distin, Traore, Crouch, Johnson, Davis, Pamarot, Kranjcar etc. If James and Kranjcar leave today as rumoured, there is no way that the series of cheap players, crocked oldies and free transfers will keep them up. Add to that the loss of esprit de corps that will be present now that so many of last seasons team have left and the upheaval that has occurred because of the takeover and they are the least stable of the clubs in the Premiership.

Even more interesting to read on that blog that appears to be quite accurate about Fahim so far, that according to him, the Fahim deal was leveraged against future income from the Premiership income, meaning that if true, Fahim doesn't really have the financial clout himself. It really does beg the question though as to why Gaydamak sold to Fahim when according to Storrie teller, there was real wealth behind his consortium. http://dralfahim.blogspot.com/