sadoldgit

This is entirely the problem. We are right, they are wrong. It is the same with the Arabs and the Jews, with us and the IRA, it goes on and on. At some point all conflicts have to be resolved around a table and it will have to happen here - if it doesn't the killing will go on forever. It is not about who is right and who is wrong. It is about learning to live together and there are plenty of Muslims who want to live peacefully. If by weak and stupid you mean that we are pathetic for not nuking Syria, then I am happy to be weak and stupid. Unfortunately your standpoint just perpetuates death and misery.

As you worked for The Sun I can understand why you always support it, but please do not use their tactics on me. Where did I say that Brooks was found guilty? She has been a part of the Murdoch culture for some time so my point is that he is happy to continue to use "his" people with "his" methods of selling newspapers. Being popular means nothing. One Direction are popular, does that make their music better than The Beatles, The Stones, Beethoven, Mozart, Bob Marley? No it just means that a lot of people currently like them, like The Osmonds and The Bay City Rollers. Whether their music will endure is another matter. I have nothing against White Van Man, I used it as a generic term. If you work in advertising you would know what I mean. As for readership, we have had this debate before, anyone who has seen the front page of The Sun is classified as a "reader." The Sun still employs MacKenzie as a columnist as I am sure you know. It also employs Katie Hopkins. Good luck with supporting their employment by the wonderful Sun. While we are at it perhaps you would also like to defend Murdoch's cynical move in closing the News of the World and then publishing a Sunday Sun soon after?

We think that we are right. That we have God on our side. We think they are wrong, that their God doesn't exist and that they are deluded. They are a threat to us. They think they are right. That they have God on their side. They think we are wrong, that our God doesn't exist and that we are deluded. We are a threat to them. The killing will go on and on as it did in all of these other conflicts over the years until someone has the common sense to say enough. At some point it will happen, but how many have to die in the meantime?

I really don't think I said that The Sun has influenced UK Muslims to go and train as extremists. My point was that front pages like that do not help the situation and will only add to the problems between us. As you point out, some are "radicalised" over here and the sort of thing being propagated by The Sun plays into the hands of those who are doing the recruiting. There are Muslims who feel under threat and the "gotcha" attitude isn't going to help them feel any better. Some of those will want to do something about it. That is why I said it is about what lies behind The Sun's headline. You would like to think that Jingoism went out in the last century but not according to The Sun.

waste

I agree. The £12m on Long can only really be judged effectively when he ends his contract with us. And we can all say now what an amazing bargain Ricky was for us at just over £1m. When we signed Osvaldo we thought it was a decent signing for the money but look how that turned out. You can only know for sure if you got your money's worth when that player has provided a service, anything before is based on your expectancy.

That is not what I am talking about as well you know. I am not talking about dealing with individuals, I am talking about ending this conflict. If you really think we will win it by taking out one here and one there then good luck with that. No one will win this conflict which is why, at some point, the talking will have to start. By the way, look at the numbers. We spend thousands on a drone and take out one or two people. They spend a few bob on a suicide vest and take out dozens. If you were playing the odds, unless we start using nukes, who do you think could keep it going longer for less? You have been involved in the military, I don't need to tell you how hard it is to fight a guerrilla war, which is exactly what we are up against.

Or the fact that we have killed goodness knows how many Muslims over the years because we thought that they were hiding non existence weapons of mass destruction? Makes it easier to recruit wouldn't you say? Not forgetting the Middle Ages where we sent thousands of God fearing Christians to the Middle East to butcher those nasty Muslims. Good to know we have the moral higher ground.

Ah yes, the two World Wars. What did Churchill call it? Splendid Isolation? You took your time joining in those didn't you. I think many of the "Limeys" on here who have contributed to the debate have spent time in America and have a good idea how the American culture works (that's another thing about us Limeys, we do like to travel). We understand (because we are well educated and well travelled) that it is not a good idea to let people loose with guns. We exercise our right to free speach to articulate our problem with the carnage that goes on in a part of the world we all share that happens to be called America that is caused by people with guns. We do this because we are concerned about the well being of our fellow man. We also don't want to be shot by some psychopath (or police officer) when we go on holiday there.

We have negotiated with all kinds of sociopaths before and are still doing so now. How many conflicts have ended with only the total annihilation of the other? Do you really think it is possible to wipe ISIS out? It isn't that simple. And they aren't rushing out to joining ISIS because of a Sun headline, they are rushing out and joining ISIS because of what lies behind the Sun headline.

That is a fair point although Keepers often have a longer career.

Perhaps every player should have his transfer value and wages agreed by an independent body? That would upset Levy! As you say, it makes for interesting reading.

We were at war with Germany. This conflict is a lot less black and white. We may be at war with terrorists but they don't wear convenient uniforms and they don't come from just one country. The rules of engagement are a lot more cloudy than they used to be.

Picking up on the point of annihilating ISIS. For every terrorist we kill, we create more. We will never annihilate them because they are everywhere. The good old days like Waterloo where armies faced each other on a battlefield and the outcome was decisive are long gone. I am sure the people who recruit future terrorists will have a field day with the front page of The Sun today as they will every time we launch a drone and cause "collateral damage."

Take someone like JRod. He wasn't the finished article when we bought him but we could all see how he improved. I don't think you could see that development with Walcott. and I accept that the numerous injuries probably have not helped him.

The thing is though that not everyone will think of them as a bit of a knobber and laugh at them. To a great many people they are seen as heroes and martyrs and we play into their hands when we don't take them seriously. We may think they are being humiliated but there are plenty of people who will be looking to avenge what we have done with yet more plots to kill innocent people. All we are doing is perpetuating the circle. At some point both sides are going to have to sit down and reach a compromise. All conflicts end with talks. It is just a question of how many more people have to die before we reach that stage.

I don't agree with censorship either but there is such a thing as common decency and most of the media have handled the news in a serious and respectful manner. You are right, The Sun will be talked about because it is doing what it does when it signs up people like Katie Hopkins. It is attention seeking. It is just a shame that the attention it gets doesn't see it go the way of the News of the World.

The situation with Brooks is just sticking the finger up by Murdoch. He has been talking the p*ss out of us for years and this is just another example of how he does it his way and doesn't give a sh*t about anything else. Sadly most of his customers don't get it until he comes out and trashes them directly, as he did with the population of Liverpool.

If something is illegal then it is only right and proper that whoever committed the illegal act is brought to book over it. We do not have capital punishment in this country and there is a basic rule - innocent until proven guilty. Were these "terrorists" given a fair trial and found guilty? Is now the PM the sole arbiter of who we can kill and who we cant? No one is taking the side of someone who commits a terrorist act. By my understanding neither of these characters had. Is it beyond our capability to bring these characters back and give them a proper, fair trial? We all know now that the whole weapons of mass destruction thing was b*ll*cks. Are you happy to believe Dave where he tells you these guys needed to die? Where is the evidence? I see you would shoot anyone spreading the message of ISIS - so much for freedom of speech too. Isnt it better that we enter dialogue and try to come to some kind of understanding with people who don't agree with the way that we live rather than continually killing each other?

How do you determine a players' worth? A player is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for him. Shane Long may not be "worth" £12m but he was to SFC who agreed to pay that price for him. Whether you are getting value for money is a different issue.

Sums it all up very nicely. This should be posted on their forum.

You really are a silly old Batman, aren't you.

I don't think they would do so just from reading one Sun headline, but it is the sort of thing that can add fuel to the fire. And I know that many people treat The Sun as a joke, but there are also who take this sh*t seriously, and that is the problem. They play to the lowest common denominator and they do get listened to, sadly.

They seem to hate their own chairman more than we do though!

It is more then just a tasteless headline though isn't it? It could stir up more hatred against us and help recruit more susceptible people to IS. The covert taking out of terrorists is one thing, taking the p*ss on the front of a national newspaper another.