Conservatives & DUP

[GenevaSaint]

The ****ing hypocrisy of this deal with the DUP. They bemoan Labour and LibDems talking about a pact, and then buy 9 seats. Trust ordinary Dave can we? If those 200m of cuts are not coming from Northern Ireland, I bet they come from English finances.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7679038/General-Election-2010-How-Conservative-deal-with-DUP-might-work.html

 

"This time around, the concession they intend to wring from a new Conservative administration is even more audacious – at the very least a commitment to cancel £200 million worth of cuts to Northern Ireland’s bloated public sector."

[Johnny Bognor]

The ****ing hypocrisy of this deal with the DUP. They bemoan Labour and LibDems talking about a pact, and then buy 9 seats. Trust ordinary Dave can we? If those 200m of cuts are not coming from Northern Ireland, I bet they come from English finances.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7679038/General-Election-2010-How-Conservative-deal-with-DUP-might-work.html

 

"This time around, the concession they intend to wring from a new Conservative administration is even more audacious – at the very least a commitment to cancel £200 million worth of cuts to Northern Ireland’s bloated public sector."

 

It is a warning for all those wanting a hung parliament. We will have a period of concession politics unless someone gets an overall majority.

[dune]

It is a warning for all those wanting a hung parliament. We will have a period of concession politics unless someone gets an overall majority.

 

It indeed but if concessions are going to be given i'd rather give them to the Unionists in NI than to the SNP and slithery Alex Salmond. At least the Unionists are proud to be British.

[GenevaSaint]

It indeed but if concessions are going to be given i'd rather give them to the Unionists in NI than to the SNP and slithery Alex Salmond. At least the Unionists are proud to be British.

 

So you're happy for money to be taken away from English pockets then Dune? Lets face it that's where the cuts would come from.

[dune]

So you're happy for money to be taken away from English pockets then Dune? Lets face it that's where the cuts would come from.

 

I think the relationship would be more political than financial. I'd have thought you lefties would be making more play on this if you'd thought about it.

[dune]

And anyway up until the 70's it was always the Conservatives + UU. they are natural allies in government. Check it out if you don't believe me.

 

http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/uktable.htm

Edited 5 May, 2010 by dune

[GenevaSaint]

I think the relationship would be more political than financial. I'd have thought you lefties would be making more play on this if you'd thought about it.

 

Did you read the OP. From the Telegraph....

 

"This time around, the concession they intend to wring from a new Conservative administration is even more audacious – at the very least a commitment to cancel £200 million worth of cuts to Northern Ireland’s bloated public sector".

 

Cameron has been quoted (last year I believe) saying the NI public sector is over funded and top heavy. Then suddenly it's ok! It just smacks of hypocrisy, and I'd say it about both parties if it were happening.

 

I wouldn't say I'm a leftie, just left of centre :-D Naturally being human I think me me me, then I remember there's a wider society, with spongers undoubtably and good people who work hard for minimum wage or for valid reasons cannot work. It's those in italics that whose fate concerns me under a Tory government. Like I said on another post, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

[buctootim]

Economically England would be so much better off without Scotland, Wales and NI. In fact if you draw a line from the Wash to the Severn north of that line GDP per capita is roughly equivalent to that of Greece, whilst south of it GDP is equivalent to Switzerland.

[View From The Top]

I think the relationship would be more political than financial. I'd have thought you lefties would be making more play on this if you'd thought about it.

 

You what? Do you have any idea on how dependent Ulster is on PS jobs?

 

This is all about ££ and protecting those Ulster jobs.

[Joensuu]

Interestingly recent polls put the Tories as being 9 short of having a majority, while the DUP are predicted to get 9 or perhaps 10 seats. We could wake up to find the Tories have a majority of 1 on Friday morning.

 

As a liberal that would be almost the perfect outcome. The Tories would have a weak government, with the press constantly stirring up divisions with rumours of MPs crossing the floor. There would be plenty of rebels in the votes. The Labour party would be in disarray, but the Liberals would have polled their best result in 85 years, and would be taken as a serious contender (none of this wasted vote nonsense). In addition the Lib Dems won't be tarnished by any of the inevitable cuts the next government will put in place, while the Tories will be very lucky not to become hated for another generation. I feel dirty for thinking it, but I genuinely am looking forward to the Tories getting a tiny majority.

[GenevaSaint]

The Labour party would be in disarray, but the Liberals would have polled their best result in 85 years, and would be taken as a serious contender (none of this wasted vote nonsense)

 

Best result in 85 years, I don't doubt, Serious contender, I doubt. Not saying they shouldn't be, but the first past the post system will never see the LibDems as a serious contender. But that's a whole different discussion. Good piece in the Independent today.

 

Anyway off topic, Dune you're quiet. Do you really think this is soley a political alliance? It's all to do with cash, the DUP are selling themselves. Look at the article again, they allegedly did the same with Labour regarding changes to the terror laws.

[OldNick]

Economically England would be so much better off without Scotland, Wales and NI. In fact if you draw a line from the Wash to the Severn north of that line GDP per capita is roughly equivalent to that of Greece, whilst south of it GDP is equivalent to Switzerland.

Does that include North Sea oil revenue. It always is used in the arguement.

[buctootim]

Does that include North Sea oil revenue. It always is used in the arguement.

 

Much less important now than it used to be. Anyway last time it looked liked Scotland was going to be independent the Shetland Isles pointed out it wasnt Scotland's oil, it was theirs, and they wanted to stay with the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/edmundconway/6505670/North-Sea-oil-is-dragging-us-into-the-red.html

Edited 5 May, 2010 by buctootim

[Wes Tender]

Economically England would be so much better off without Scotland, Wales and NI. In fact if you draw a line from the Wash to the Severn north of that line GDP per capita is roughly equivalent to that of Greece, whilst south of it GDP is equivalent to Switzerland.

 

A very good point.

 

Time to either disallow the Scottish, Welsh and the Irish to vote in our Parliament over English matters, or to disband their Parliaments and assemblies. We should give them the choice as to which it is to be, just to be more fair to them than the West Lothian question has been to us.

 

The Scottish Mafia in particular has been extremely influential poking their Scottish noses into English affairs, with the following MPs and PMs since 1997

 

Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Robin Cook, George Robertson, Helen Liddell, Donald Dewar, Lord Irvine, David Clark, Gavin Strang, John Reid, Lord Falconer and Ian McCartney.

 

The Libs / Lib/Dems, favour Scottish or Welsh as their party leaders, with Lloyd-George, David Steel, Kennedy, Menzies-Campbell, Jo Grimond. Even Englishman Jeremy Thorpe had a Scott connection.

 

I find it hard to think of many Scots and Welsh in positions of influence in the Conservative Party. Cameron and Alec Douglas-Home, but who else?

 

As you say, not only would the English be much better off without the Scots, Northern Irish and Welsh, but there would be a continuous Conservative majority without the 99 Welsh and Scots MPs, the majority of whom represent Labour constituencies.

[View From The Top]

A very good point.

 

Time to either disallow the Scottish, Welsh and the Irish to vote in our Parliament over English matters, or to disband their Parliaments and assemblies. We should give them the choice as to which it is to be, just to be more fair to them than the West Lothian question has been to us.

 

I've always believed that the English should be given a referendum as to whether they wish to remain in the Union.

The celtic nations are always banging on about having independence from us but we've never been asked if we want independence from them.

 

We would become a low tax/high GDP nation without them and it would solve the West Lothian question once and for all.

 

I'm firmly of the belief that it would draw the main parties in England to the centre which would be no bad thing.

[Wes Tender]

I've always believed that the English should be given a referendum as to whether they wish to remain in the Union.

The celtic nations are always banging on about having independence from us but we've never been asked if we want independence from them.

 

We would become a low tax/high GDP nation without them and it would solve the West Lothian question once and for all.

 

I'm firmly of the belief that it would draw the main parties in England to the centre which would be no bad thing.

 

I think that there is a lot to be said for the Union as an entity, with trade agreements between the four nations, much as the Common Market was to have been. Other matters such as defence could be shared too.

 

Perhaps there could be a Union Parliament with much fewer MPs and a separate English Paliament dealing solely with the economy, laws and affairs of England. And the laws set by the English Parliament and the economic policy, tax raising measures, etc, should prevail over those imposed by the European Courts. That should be negotiated with Europe and if they don't like it, we should have a referendum on leaving.

[buctootim]

I think that there is a lot to be said for the Union as an entity, with trade agreements between the four nations, much as the Common Market was to have been. Other matters such as defence could be shared too.

 

Perhaps there could be a Union Parliament with much fewer MPs and a separate English Paliament dealing solely with the economy, laws and affairs of England. And the laws set by the English Parliament and the economic policy, tax raising measures, etc, should prevail over those imposed by the European Courts. That should be negotiated with Europe and if they don't like it, we should have a referendum on leaving.

 

With the advent of the EU the value of the Union has declined. I dont think we would lose anything with England, Scotland, Wales and NI all being independent nations with Europe.

[Joensuu]

Wes, Scotland, Wales and NI can leave if they want to, but I wouldn't set your hopes up for endless Conservative rule. Quite simply people get annoyed with governments, and every few years have had enough of the current bunch of trough feeders and want to give the other party a fair crack at feathering their nests.

 

Removing Scottish votes would obviously have an impact upon the balance of power in Westminster. With at least 60% of English voters not wanting a Conservative government, the clamour for a fairer voting system would become deafening.

 

NB, it's worth remembering that in 1997 Labour would have won without the support of Scotland, Wales or NI. Your dream of an endless Tory winter wouldn't last for long.

[TopGun]

Wes, Scotland, Wales and NI can leave if they want to, but I wouldn't set your hopes up for endless Conservative rule. Quite simply people get annoyed with governments, and every few years have had enough of the current bunch of trough feeders and want to give the other party a fair crack at feathering their nests.

 

Removing Scottish votes would obviously have an impact upon the balance of power in Westminster. With at least 60% of English voters not wanting a Conservative government, the clamour for a fairer voting system would become deafening.

 

NB, it's worth remembering that in 1997 Labour would have won without the support of Scotland, Wales or NI. Your dream of an endless Tory winter wouldn't last for long.

 

This is all true. To suggest that the Tories would win forever in England is just naive.

 

The other interesting part about a Con DUP coalition is how Sinn Fein would react in Northern Ireland where it is in coalition with the DUP itself. Would SF countenance a DUP alliance with the Tory Party or would that signal an end to powersharing in Northern Ireland?

[GenevaSaint]

With the advent of the EU the value of the Union has declined. I dont think we would lose anything with England, Scotland, Wales and NI all being independent nations with Europe.

 

Maybe we could gain, we'd get a team in the Olympic games for football :-D

[Wes Tender]

Wes, Scotland, Wales and NI can leave if they want to, but I wouldn't set your hopes up for endless Conservative rule. Quite simply people get annoyed with governments, and every few years have had enough of the current bunch of trough feeders and want to give the other party a fair crack at feathering their nests.

 

Removing Scottish votes would obviously have an impact upon the balance of power in Westminster. With at least 60% of English voters not wanting a Conservative government, the clamour for a fairer voting system would become deafening.

 

NB, it's worth remembering that in 1997 Labour would have won without the support of Scotland, Wales or NI. Your dream of an endless Tory summer wouldn't last for long.

 

I made one small alteration.

 

The points you make are fair enough, but they don't take account of how the economy would be changed without the Scottish, Welsh and Irish. Unless I'm mistaken, they are nett beneficiaries of revenue that goes towards their economies, whereas we English are nett contributors.

 

If that premise is correct, then that would mean that taxation in England could be reduced and/or public services, health care spending could increase.

 

With decent provision for these things, improvements to the transport infrastructure, more police on the beat, more nurses and teachers, more disposable income for the man in the street, there would be less inclination towards changes of government if the public were satisfied that things were being well run.

 

I grant you that there might be pressure to reform the voting system, but I'd support it if the main item on the agenda was Parliamentary independence for England. The system needs changing now anyway, as it takes far more votes to elect a Conservative MP than it does a Labour one.

[Joensuu]

I made one small alteration.

 

The points you make are fair enough, but they don't take account of how the economy would be changed without the Scottish, Welsh and Irish. Unless I'm mistaken, they are nett beneficiaries of revenue that goes towards their economies, whereas we English are nett contributors.

 

If that premise is correct, then that would mean that taxation in England could be reduced and/or public services, health care spending could increase.

 

With decent provision for these things, improvements to the transport infrastructure, more police on the beat, more nurses and teachers, more disposable income for the man in the street, there would be less inclination towards changes of government if the public were satisfied that things were being well run.

 

I grant you that there might be pressure to reform the voting system, but I'd support it if the main item on the agenda was Parliamentary independence for England. The system needs changing now anyway, as it takes far more votes to elect a Conservative MP than it does a Labour one.

 

Problem is that premise might not be correct:

 

Without English aid, but with all of it's share of the North Sea oil, Scotland would have a budget surplus of £837 million (in 2007-2008 ) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7465840.stm Does this mean that Scottish taxes are actually helping to keep English services running?

 

I can't find any figures on Wales of NI, and can only assume that they are indeed net beneficiaries. However when counter balanced by the Scottish economy, you might find the economic impact on the English economy of all three countries becoming independent would be negligable.

Edited 5 May, 2010 by Joensuu
8) causing a blue face

[Joensuu]

I grant you that there might be pressure to reform the voting system, but I'd support it if the main item on the agenda was Parliamentary independence for England. The system needs changing now anyway, as it takes far more votes to elect a Conservative MP than it does a Labour one.

 

Absolutely. Although, the marked voting decline in safe Labour seats might also be reversed. Take for example Liverpool, where the turnout has dropped signficantly (Labour vote has dropped from c. 140,000 in 1992 to c. 100,000 in 2005). I imagine that one of the main reasons for the reduction in votes cast in Liverpool is due to the seats being very safe, so the voters realise that it doesn't matter whether they vote or not and would rather stay at home. Whereas in most safe Tory seat the turnout has not dropped significantly, mainly because many Tories see voting as their civic duty, and irrespective of whether it matters or not, will ensure that they make it to the poll booth.

 

As such, reforming the system will make both Labour and Conservatives need the same number of votes to win a seat (benefiting the tories), but convesely the number of votes cast for Labour is likely to also increase.

 

Of course the real winners would be the smaller parties, and of course democracy.

[Wes Tender]

Absolutely. Although, the marked voting decline in safe Labour seats might also be reversed. Take for example Liverpool, where the turnout has dropped signficantly (Labour vote has dropped from c. 140,000 in 1992 to c. 100,000 in 2005). I imagine that one of the main reasons for the reduction in votes cast in Liverpool is due to the seats being very safe, so the voters realise that it doesn't matter whether they vote or not and would rather stay at home. Whereas in most safe Tory seat the turnout has not dropped significantly, mainly because many Tories see voting as their civic duty, and irrespective of whether it matters or not, will ensure that they make it to the poll booth.

 

As such, reforming the system will make both Labour and Conservatives need the same number of votes to win a seat (benefiting the tories), but convesely the number of votes cast for Labour is likely to also increase.

 

Of course the real winners would be the smaller parties, and of course democracy.

 

You make a valid enough point. But my concern was along the lines that Conservatives (and some Lib/Dem seats, have much larger electorates (being rural areas often) than many traditional Labour seats, that tend to be the big cities with several seats within that city boundary.

[Wes Tender]

Problem is that premise might not be correct:

 

Without English aid, but with all of it's share of the North Sea oil, Scotland would have a budget surplus of £837 million (in 2007-2008 ) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7465840.stm Does this mean that Scottish taxes are actually helping to keep English services running?

 

I can't find any figures on Wales of NI, and can only assume that they are indeed net beneficiaries. However when counter balanced by the Scottish economy, you might find the economic impact on the English economy of all three countries becoming independent would be negligable.

 

Well, that's OK if you accept that the oil is Scotland's and that it has been Scottish companies who paid the original costs of exploration and drilling. I know that Salmond likes to claim this, but it is always contested. So the North Sea gas is English on that basis?

 

Whatever the situation is regarding oil or gas, I'm still perfectly happy for England to either have its own Parliament, or to get out of the Union.

[1976_Child]

The main Westminster parties have, by mutual consent, always kept well out of Ulster politics. But that does not mean that there are not glaringly obvious 'synergies' between certain NI parties and Westminster parties. Now that, thank God, the bombings have ceased why wouldn't they formalize their positions?

[GenevaSaint]

The main Westminster parties have, by mutual consent, always kept well out of Ulster politics. But that does not mean that there are not glaringly obvious 'synergies' between certain NI parties and Westminster parties. Now that, thank God, the bombings have ceased why wouldn't they formalize their positions?

 

I don't have a problem with them aligning, but I do when it's about money rather than purely political lines. We've huge problems in the economy, they're potentially going to drop the requirement for 200m of cuts in NI, that's WRONG.

 

You've been bleating on for days about the economic problems, 200m is 200m. Not a huge amount, but if the cut isn't made there it will be somewhere else, probably in England. Cameron said last year that the NI public sector was bloated.